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Installing a Second Generator in 68' Lazzara?

Discussion in 'Lazzara Yacht' started by Jennifer Anne, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. Jennifer Anne

    Jennifer Anne New Member

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    Since we've bought the boat, the 29 kW generator has been troublesome. With clean Racors and strainers, it tends to die on us (especially when we have company aboard!). The techs are teasing that all out but we are reluctant to go on a long distance trip and lose the operation of the heads, ACs and appliances.

    We want to install a second generator but have found that a 24 kW weighs in at 1300 lbs with dimensions of 53.5" x 24.5" x 30". I imagine a crane would be required...

    Questions:
    1. Has anyone else crossed this bridge?
    2. To get it onto the boat, I guess we will have to open up something that's closed if the entry way into the engine room is < 24.5". (I'm not on the boat now to measure.) Any suggestions about where to start? Perhaps the Lazzarette?
    3. Are there other alternatives to a second generator?
    THANK YOU!
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Anything can be done at a price of money and time. However, I'd consider several factors in deciding and one is that weight. I'd run the boat with equivalent weight placed where you plan on putting the generator and see what difference it makes, doing so with full fuel and water.

    The first thing I would do is get one generator working properly and all spares needed to maintain it. Installing a second doesn't fix the first. It needs to be fixed or replaced or determined if it's too small for your load. Do you know why it dies on you? I have no idea what you mean by "the techs are teasing that all out."

    Then look at your total power picture with all your requirements and at your generator, invertor, and batteries. Then you can do proper sizing. Why did you select 24 kw? Why not 29 or why not 15? I'd definitely measure the entry way but do you have space in your engine room for one?

    We like having a second identical generator. However, we went to all the trouble of adding one on our Sunseeker and for the time we owned it, could have easily been fine on just the one. But then we keep them up well and never have had any significant issues with one. If we only had one and it failed, we would head to a marina and shore power and get it fixed immediately so we could head back out as soon as possible.
  3. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    What kind of generator? Oh-no? (Onan) :)

    First I d I would fix the generator you have. Why is it shutting down? Any errors?

    We have a pair of Oh-no 27.5 on the 2009 Lazzara 84 I ve been running for 3 years. I ve had more issues with them in the first year than with the 20kw Northern lights in 10 years on the boat I was running before... that said most of the issues were sensors. Easy fix, just keep spares on board.

    Weight should not be a problem adding a second genny especially if you don’t put it all the way aft in the lazzarette. An alternative would be to install an inverter so you can run the water pump, fridges and freezers etc. easier to find room but you won’t run the air con on inverter ...

    But again fix the existing genny. How old, how many hours
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Gen sets usally get tore down and sub by sub carried to its final install point. It may still take some overhead rails for the long block but it's usally down to 16" wide or less by now. You may find tapping into the ships existing ACv to be the larger challenge.
    Fix what you have first. Sounds like a shut down sender.

    Consider inverters.

    We have 2 gen sets and while cruising, only use our inverter.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Some 68's came with a second generator, but it was a 9kw and was wired by Lazarra in the most assinine way, it would only run certain items on the panel...….fresh water pump, battery chargers, but couldn't make it run things you'd want to if you had to like refrigerator, no A/Cs or anything else if you wanted to balance the load. It was mounted in the engine room, so putting a larger one should be able to be done.

    Quite honestly, I'd either fix or simply replace what you have. A good tech should be able to properly diagnose yours. How many hours are on it? At best it's 11 years old.
  6. Jennifer Anne

    Jennifer Anne New Member

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    We are having the first generator repaired. Thank you all for the advice!!
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
  7. Mark Woglom

    Mark Woglom Senior Member

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    I think I might have been a former owner of your boat. There is so much stuff running AC power on that boat, that losing the generator is a real pain in the butt.

    If you have my old boat, you should have both an AC water pump, plus a DC water pump. I added the DC pump as a backup. We once lost generator power on a day long offshore trip, with 4 couples aboard. The toilets require water pressure in order to flush, so if you lost power to the AC water pump, you had no ability to flush toilets. Hence, the addition of the DC backup pump, as 8 hours with no toilets was not fun.

    I also added a small UPS system and inverter, so that the ISIS systems management system would continue to run in the event of AC power loss.

    I contemplated a 2nd generator, but I think it would be a huge project to get a 2nd one in there.

    In general, I found the generator to be pretty reliable. My recollection was that the failure was attributable to a failed temperature sensor. I never could have solved the problem as a mechanically challenged owner/operator, so having a good understanding of what will work, and not work, during an AC power loss, is important.

    Good luck.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I know it was asked and perhaps even assumed but were we ever told what brand generator this is?
  9. Jennifer Anne

    Jennifer Anne New Member

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    Thank you for your reply, Mark! I agree that you must be the former owner of our boat. Was it Alacrity under your ownership? I'm not sure about names before that, but we are hull #3.

    We enjoyed your DC backup pump this weekend as the generator went in and out with 9 folks aboard. Can I assume that the macerator hand pump for thru hull discharge was also your addition?

    There were still mats of bacteria and fungus upstream of the generator racors even though I thought polishing the fuel had this problem resolved. In the end, the captain (who is also our lead technician with our yacht mgmt. company) chose to bypass the generator's racors to keep her sustained. We have been using additives but another round of polishing is certainly in order.

    Thank you for reaching out! We'd love to connect with you when we're on the east coast for the boat shows!
  10. Jennifer Anne

    Jennifer Anne New Member

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    It's an Onan. The error codes that are supposed to show to inform the problem are not working. We will order a new panel to remedy that.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I have to ask you one question. Was the fuel truly polished or was it just filtered thoroughly which many call polishing.

    Are you using an Onan trained or certified technician? Or is the yacht management company messing with it?

    I have concerns with the level of service you're getting when you're considering a second generator because someone can't fix the one you've got and when you're seeing dirty fuel that was supposedly polished.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I agree. Get a good Onan mechanic to fix it.

    If the fuel was polished you shouldn’t have issues. I don’t understand the part about bacteria and fungus upstream of the racor and even less the concept of bypassing the racor.

    Get a pro. Personally my experience with theses yacht management company has never been positive. Yes some are good but many are just milking the ower...

    When I got on the 2009 84 Lazzara I ve selected for the owners and have been running for 3 years, i has to deal with a ton of small issues all traced back to poor maintenance from a management company who also provided a part time captain. Corroded nav lights sockets, lead acid batteries instead of AGMs, dead UPS on the ISIS system, failing sensors on both Onans, etc...
  13. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    What is the difference between filtering and polishing?
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've found after dealing with 100's of boats. Polishing fuel only gets it down to 10 microns, and doesn't get all of the algae out of the fuel, and if you don't stop the source of the water getting into the tanks (usually the fuel cap O-rings), and use all of the fuel, AND put a good product to kill the algae, you're wasting your time and you will be right back to ground zero in 1-2 months. Go out and buy a product from Power Service called "Clear Diesel", 1 gallon treats 500 gallons of fuel. Buy enough and top off the tank. A NAPA store can order it for you. I've used this stuff and it completely disintegrates the algae and doesn't clog fuel filters. Algae needs a warm environment, air, and water in order to grow in diesel. Items 1+2 are already there.

    https://powerservice.com/psp_product/clear-diesel-fuel-tank-cleaner/


    Filtering and polishing are the same thing in most cases. That is, unless you have a centrifuge and have it calibrated to the correct specific gravity of the fuel and it will remove all of the contaminents suspended in the fuel. Granted, only commercial ships/boats and megayachts have an alfa laval or similar centrifuge. Algae generally mostly grows on the sides of the tank and bottom, usually the bottom 60% of the tank, and then when you get in rough seas it knocks it off and gets in the lines and fuel filters. So you could run the fuel through a centrifuge for a week on a Lazzara, but unless you can open the tank and physically clean the tank sides and bottom with a high pressure spray nozzle and etc. You're certainly not getting all of the algae out of a tank. And algae is like cancer, if you don't get it all, it just grows right back.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  15. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    Polishing should involve a centrifuge.
  16. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Polishing uses either a centrifuge or other system to remove any foreign matter from the oil and to maintain it's performance level. Polishing is the careful removal of non-combustible contaminates below levels stated inASTM D975(Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils) while re-suspending (keeping) combustible contaminates to maintain ASTM standards for BTU value, lubricity, and cetane.

    Fuel polishing uses a combination of centrifuges, coalescers, and filtration to remove the non-combustible contaminates and return the combustible contaminates to the fuel.

    The primary difference between fuel polishing and fuel filtering is that fuel polishing acknowledges that fuel itself can degrade/consolidate (clump together into solids) and that it needs to be kept, where as fuel filtering does not. Fuel polishing recognizes that combustible contaminates should be changed back to their original form and re-suspended in the fuel so the fuel stays within industry specifications and functions as it’s intended to. Fuel filtering ignores that and simply pulls all contaminates out without regard for their value to the fuel and the engine.

    Filtering does not make bad fuel good. It may remove contaminates.

    Also, with polishing of tanks in vessels you typically will also get the tanks cleaned rather than return good fuel back to the same old dirty tanks.
  17. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    As to yacht management companies. They fall into several different variations and run the gamut of quality. I know some great yacht managers but one of the reason they are good is that they know what work to refer to others and to whom to refer it.

    Words like "I'm a mechanic" scare me. My question is do you have expertise on what you're going to be working on. The yacht management company that attempts to do everything themselves is not providing the best service available. Even the best yards don't do that.

    In a matter of speaking we own a yacht management company. Only thing is it's not open to the public. But we have 7 or 8 boats plus 8 RIB's or so that either we own or close family owns that they're responsible for. I consider the Engineers involved, as well as the Captains, to be the best I could find. They can handle routine matters and urgent matters but they do not attempt to do it all. Major work on equipment is done by experts on that specific equipment. My staff may even be well trained on the equipment but they don't do work on it and other similar every day. Many things are required including training, diagnostic equipment, maintenance equipment, manuals and experience.

    In selecting yacht management, I'd be very sure to ask what they do and what they refer to others and to whom they refer. If they say they do it all, then be wary.
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You don't use a centrifuge, you're not polishing. I would change your comment to this:

    Filtering and filtering which providers claim is polishing are the same in most cases. However, filtering and real polishing are very different.

    Also, if you filter (or kill) all the growth and don't return it anew to the fuel, then your fuel will not meet standards.
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Either way, if you cannot physically open the tank and access every square inch of it to clean it, you're not getting anywhere close to all of the algae out with either method. Companies such as reverso and others sell/market their Fuel filter assemblies as fuel polishers......so do those magnet type devices. The term "fuel polishing" is a generic term for cleaning diesel fuel. Google "fuel polishing diesel fuel" and every answer will tell you that it's simply cleaning diesel fuel and contaminents out of it and returning it to a usable condition via filtering or other methods.......down to 2 microns of algae is a suitable condition to burn it by definition......….A centrifuge is the best method of fuel polishing if it's calibrated correctly, but fuel polishing does not mean only using a centrifuge.
  20. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    Calibrating a centrifuge? Can you please tell me more about this?

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