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I'm under contract to buy a 2011 Azimut 58...

Discussion in 'Azimut Yacht' started by makesumwake2, Jan 5, 2020.

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  1. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Here's your previous post:

    ...the charter revenue of the 2011 azimut im trying to buy, which can be from 150k to 300k/yr depending on how much one wants to work it and how established one is in the charter market, can easily pay for the issues to be encountered by running azimut... and then some.

    I know what revenue is. Your numbers are all over the place. Go for it. Good luck. I don't know why you came on here and asked anybody in the first place.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    If you're trolling us, you're doing a good job. If not, it's sad.

    You're buying a boat to survive? You're going to work 60 hours a week maintaining your boat as a deck hand? You're essentially buying yourself a job as a deck hand. Why don't you just take a job on another boat as a deck hand and diver? You'll come out better.

    But then you value whoever is leading you down this path to destruction's opinion more than any opinions here because most of us think you're out of your mind with this scheme.

    Is your friend's full time charter legal?

    Your numbers are so off the wall, it's futile to even attempt to respond. You're going to do it. You're going to work hard and lose money. I'm sorry that's the way it is.
  3. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    thanks guys, ill defer to your experience. im genuinely trying to understand.

    lets assume i will just buy a yacht and own it for pleasure.

    so,
    what ballpark average numbers should i use for my expenses each year?
    i know the numbers for dock, fuel, etc. i just dont know them for maintenance/repairs

    this is the only thing im trying to figure out!

    thanks for your time so far!
  4. Brian G

    Brian G Member

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    This thread has been such an interesting read. From the way you engaged in the contract process, to the reasoning you used to decide on a boat, to your estimate of the projected revenues of a potential charter business. It seems to me to be a clear case of confirmation bias. In each of those three scenarios, you made an emotional assessment or decision and then looked for data or evidence to confirm those decisions. I'm afraid this forum won't rubber stamp your thought processes and is quick to press the BS button.

    We see the fallacy in your thinking perhaps because we've engaged in some of it ourselves ... speaking for myself, of course. Big boats will do that to you. :)
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  5. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    It takes Mutts to make a thing go right...It takes Mutts to make it out of sight..I got an idea that I wanna share. You don't like it so what, I don't care!:D:eek:
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    that s not going to cover expenses. Most charters are half days... so around $2k is realistic. You ll get a few full days but just a few

    will you get more than 55 “days”? Maybe. Not the first couple of years though. And your crew better be VERY good. If you think publix platters will cut it... nope. You need a chef or at least someone who can serve some pretty good food... you need to factor in $200 per charter in food if you want to be successful.

    and you have to make sure every T is crossed and every I dotted for every charter to avoid any legal issues with the USCG.

    PS: i ran a 70 footer for 8 years in Miami. We did up to 100 days (or half day) a year and almost covered expenses. But that was a few years back. These days there is a lot more competition and the quality of the guests has gone done. Think ghetto crowd all pitching $200 each for a day on a yacht. We don’t do day charter anymore.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  7. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Now that’s funny , too bad you can’t attach the music to it!
  8. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    That seems low to me but I've never cooked for a charter. I have cooked for other functions.... what does the customer get for that?
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    6 passengers, $33.33 per each. That's decent. That's a $100+ restaurant meal. Pascal's done it and I'd think his number would be close.
  10. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    I'm sure Pascal is dead on... just trying to get my head around what he offers for that.

    So..... "a meal"..... Sit down, apps, salad, main, desert coffee.... I assume wine and beer are extra or do you need a liquor license to sell? BYOB? I assume hard liquor is out?
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Well a day charter, you're talking about lunch...…..what I've done for example...…...a really nice arugula salad tossed in olive oil, with fresh pickled shallots (as the dressing and mix the shallots in the salad), baked-potato slices like chips (laid nicely around the edge) premium 12/16 count wild shrimp steamed in Old Bay. 12 people/4 lbs shrimp $60, $20 in greens etc......so $80 for the main......you can buy quality desserts for about $4 per person (or even less).....$48, then appetizers......Italian meat and cheese platter $30, smoked fish dip $10, veggie platter $10 ...……..alcohol is totally the taste of the guests and usually separate...…..
  12. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    OK, that makes sense. Got it. So, does one need to have a liquor license to serve alcohol?
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No. Alcohol is paid for by the guests.
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You need to take a lot of breaths and slow way way way way down. Since Sunday, you've had an offer on a boat you couldn't sea trial and have never seen and you felt under pressure on, you've switched to another boat, you've tossed out a bunch of different charter numbers none of which approach a reasonable reality and you've factored false charter expectations into your potential purchases. If you are serious and really believe the numbers someone has been giving you then you need to really reset your BS meter. I see where you want to know about maintenance and repairs but we don't even know the boat.

    Now, do you really want a 60 hour a week job as a deck hand and your pay is a week or two a year of boating and for that job you have to spend $800,000 up front?

    Just a bit on some of your charter numbers. First you have to go through the steps to legally charter your boat. Then advertise and promote somehow. You have projected $150k to 300k to $98k revenue. Well, as a new charterer of an old boat, you're not even going to hit the 55 days in your last calculation or the average rate. You will be lucky to get 20 to 30 days and only then because you provide a cut, unprofitable rate.

    And crew. You're going to live on hiring underqualified part time crew. You're going to need at least two if not three crew members and to get decent your daily rate would be more like $650 a day. Who is going to cook? You didn't factor in food costs. Your fuel costs of $3000 a year don't allow you to run but a few miles occasionally. You refer to gas price but you're talking diesel boats.

    Now you say you know everything but maintenance and repair costs. No, you don't and this is where the huge problem is. If you said you didn't, then it would be possible to help you but when you don't know what you don't know that's a huge problem. Do you know the costs of docking in the Bahamas. You still have your dock here so that's all incremental. What about fees to go there. Do you know what they are?

    Your choice of boats out of all the boats in the world you could choose show you're not prepared. A boat that long ago was out of business and a boat that's sitting in the frozen tundra, a brand that most here in the US don't praise either. Why the hurry. Why not slow down and learn? But then you can't learn if you already think you know it all. Did you have fuel and performance curves on either boat you mentioned? If not, how do you know fuel costs? What do you do when we bomb the middle east and fuel prices double?

    You talk maintenance and your original number wasn't too far off for the basic and routine. But what if you need to rebuild an engine or replace a generator or replace turbochargers? What about bottom paint. You talked about diving. Are you going to do your own bottom painting. Regardless toss it in. Do you know the prices of haul outs at any yards that would allow that?

    If chartering you have to pay the rates for charter pickups at quality marinas. That's where charterers expect to board. What do you do when the captain who said he'd be there doesn't show up?

    Now, let's assume you spend $800.000 on a 15 to 20 year old boat. Many would say to prepare to spend $80,000 a year on it. I wouldn't say that's all for maintenance. But before we ever even get there, let's talk another huge number. Getting the boat ready, upgrading electronics, going through systems, renewing interior. This alone could be $50,000 or $200,000.

    You tossed out $11,000 for insurance. Where did you get that number? Did that include no limits on where you are on hurricanes? What kind of hurricane deductible? Are you even insurable based on your previous ownership and experience? What will it take to be so. This is not even mentioning insurance for chartering which adds another major element.

    You've been on a frantic pace in this thread and that will get you in big trouble. Fortunately it's all talk or you might already be.

    Approaching your first boat, you need to look at boats significantly less in cost than what you can afford because any estimate you make as to cost will be low. You also need to not buy dependent on chartering but buy what you can afford, then if you charter just use that to save money and perhaps even put toward your next boat, when you'll be more experienced.

    We've all been at step one but most of us had more self awareness. Before we considered buying our first boat we hired a couple, both captains, at close to $200,000 a year total costs to help us look and to help train us. We knew we came from boating on a lake and this was a new world. Were we overly conservative? Absolutely. Conservative in these matters lives longer than gambler, caution to the wind.

    You need to take steps though and I'd encourage you to either make friends with and engage an independent captain or engineer who can help you evaluate and/or get a buyers broker to guide you through the process. You have no idea yet what boat would even be right for you.

    I saw your reasoning of selection that "girls like" a particular style. Expensive way to get girls. You can go buy them for the hour or month cheaper and a boat won't get you any unless you toss in lots of other benefits. Plenty of boats available for girls to get aboard. Are girls attracted to boats? Yes. So the boat gets the girl, but that doesn't mean you have one if she's just there for the boat.

    I don't know what has you on this high speed boat kick. I don't know your age, but your maturity seems to reflect quite young. I don't know what you're looking for and definitely don't know why you came here. I do know you need to sit back and evaluate because right now, based on what we've observed, any move you make without help is almost assured to be a wrong move.

    If you want to charter a boat, go to the Virgin Islands and go talk to Moorings. At least then you'd have more price certainty and they know what they're doing.

    I don't have experience in trying to do what you're trying, but I do have experience in talking to others about to try and others who did try. I've seen those who spent $800,000 and are so disgusted after a year they sell for $600,000 and vow never to own another boat. I've seen those depending on breaking even on chartering, led to believe they'd charter at least 12 weeks a year, but after nine months they didn't have their first charter.

    Boating is for pleasure. If it stretches you at all or you estimate terribly wrong, then you'll be stressed financially and that isn't pleasurable. Keep it as simple as you can. Make it dependent only on what you can be sure of. I ask you to consider this on chartering. If it was profitable as some make it appear, would those in the business just be brokering the boats of others or would some of them on the boats instead? It's like all these get rich quick real estate people. Why aren't they just outrageously wealthy and why do they need to make appearances and sell books and entice others into it.

    Then, the first year cost of a used boat purchased will be at least double whatever you estimate as an inexperienced boat owner.

    Best of luck, but the only way you'll have good luck is to slow down and take the steps necessary to achieve it.
  15. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Haha, I see that we are both old enough to remember Mamet's play "Glengarry Glen Ross"... :)

    Excellent overview on charter, overall.
    Easily the best contribution of the whole thread so far.
  16. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Yes: I tell my charters guests to bring their own beer or wine, and when on the boat, I suggest they look in the cooler, there may be a bottle of cold Prosecco left over from a previous trip..
    (It always is, nice surprise. :cool:)
  17. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    yes im definitely guilty of this. thanks for pointing it out!
  18. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    Pascal, yes thats what ive heard as well. i understand having a nicer more expensive boat can help out with the quality of guests, vs a cheaper boat.

    "15% of 365 days = 54.75 days @ $1800 per day = $98,550 per year"
    this was my worst case scenario. the boat currently gets 2400/4hr wholesale rates on the weekend (information i received from a few local brokers)
    i would assume if i price it well below its 4hr wholesale price, i would at least be able to rent it at least 15% of the year. let me know if this worse case scenario is still overly optimistic

    also ive researched coast guard requirements at length, and talked to the coast guard directly.
  19. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    I have a confession to make.... I too am contemplating maybe doing some light chartering when I get my boat. Under 60' Just me and my lovely bride. Not to be able to own the boat or for income, just to defer SOME of the cost of owning. And maybe have some tax advantage for at least a few years...... Hey, I've got this closet full with white shirts with epaulet shoulders..... This thread is most educational. And for once I can sit in the back of the class and watch some other kid get the treatment. I may even forget about the whole idea and just run OPB's around by the hour. :D
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  20. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    thanks for this awesome reply, i will try to answer your points.

    i want to work on the boat for the 1st year, learn everything about it, get experience. ive got enough boating experience to get my 6 pack captains license already. but i want the master.
    im not trying to work on it forever. it was part of my worse case scenario. but i do want to make yachting a lifestyle. why not work on my own yacht, learn from the captain, save money on crew, and get some revenue from charters?


    300k+ = revenue my friend is getting, running a boat not as nice as the one im trying to get. its a full time job for him however. im not assuming i would be able to do this. i think the boat i want could get this if it is ran a lot, priced right, marketed right, and established, etc.
    another friend is running an 86s azimut, not as frequently, and bringing in 300k+/yr revenue

    $98k = my worse case scenario. the boat in question is already a charter boat in miami and goes out every weekend. owners wholesale rate is 2400-4hrs. ive called some charter brokers, im getting some vary low numbers, but numbers that they would send me business
    i assumed i could mark it down even further to 1800 and rent it at least 1 or 2 times a week. thats how i came up with 98k
    usually marking things down = more sales. so im using low numbers, AND low rental percentage to be safe.


    haha, the term gas = "fuel" to me. i have been running gas engines my whole life, i have a diesel in my skid steer loader, otherwise brand new to diesels.

    i have some captain/crew options lined up. i need to get more backup captains. but this is something i would get nailed down once i own the boat.

    no one i know cooks on their day charters in miami. i have seen them bring catered food onboard before boat leaves dock, if the guest wants (and pays extra for it).


    trying to find out what i dont know is why im here!

    charters would be in miami only. i was saying that im aware of the basic costs. maintenance/repairs was the unknown. im not saying that im a know-it-all.
    i got quotes for insurance and dockage. ive looked up the gph fuel usage on different rpms for comparable boats. i know the distances to get to different popular anchor locations. i have cost of captains, crew. bi-weekly cleaning, bottom cleaning. haul out every 1 or 2 years depending on the location boat is sitting. prop speed / bottom paint. im aware of depreciation expense as well, but im more concerned with cashflows right now.

    let me know if im leaving out something

    fuel is one of the least of the expenses because in my area, the boats travel from 1 mile, to 5 miles and then back. idle speeds the whole time. so gas doubles, it isnt a deal breaker.


    im aware of the poor reputation of azimut. italian boats are used a lot in the charter market down here because they rent well. its a trade off for sure.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020