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Helicopters / Seaplanes on Yachts

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by mp-willow, Mar 16, 2006.

  1. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    re-fueling and maintanince

    c135delta> thanks for the help. I am thinking of a Yacht that is 82m LOA and 16m beam. Draft is a little up in the air, would like it under 6m. The hanger if able to have it would be full beam.
    I am reading about different aircraft now, as this forum and thread have been most helpful.

    I have a question for you all! I have been reading about maintanance and re-fueling cirtification for use on Yachts? I take it this is seperate from operational cirtification?:eek:
  2. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    Acctually, as long as you don't charge people to ride with you (chartering the yacht dosn't apply). Then you won't need any certifications. Just make sure your pilot an if you have an A&P think it's ok. If they think it's fine then you'll be allright as they wouldn't make anything unsafe as there life is on the line also.

    I wouldn't worry about it.
  3. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    So the helicoptor ride would be ok to take out to Yacht if they chartered the Yacht? That seems confusing, but I gess if you are not charging for it or say that it comes with the Yacht?

    Question: What Heli would you like to use off a yacht? ;)
  4. Crewagency

    Crewagency Guest

    Helicopter on Board

    I am searching for details about carrying a helicopter on board Yachts.
    My client is planning to build a 35-38m Explorer type yacht and we just want to know something about the regulations for stowing a helicopter on board.

    I learned that there are 3 different regulations
    1. heli only for short touch down
    2. heli landed on board
    3. heli stowed on board with fueling

    What about fueling the heli on board ? Will it be more easy if the new diesel helicopters will come in the market ?
    Regulations easier with steel or aluminium Yachts instead of GFK Yachts ?

    Thanks
    Alex
  5. Crewagency

    Crewagency Guest

    Some flight impressions from Mallorca

    Thats what we want to put on the yacht. That was my first Heli flight and I will never forget.

    Attached Files:

  6. Go5go

    Go5go New Member

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    Alex:

    I don't know about the diesel helicopters.

    Steel is the preferred material for the helicopter deck. Mostly for its strength and fire resistance.

    Lloyds has required on Aluminum decks for re-fueling a steel perimeter gutter detail with steel drainage pipes to waterline (stainless was used).

    For a plastic deck, I would assume that some sort of fire retardant coatings and gutter. I would try looking for information on Triton's deck and whether or not it includes re-fueling. Check with your classification people and see if they have any insights, or rules regarding GFK and re-fueling.
  7. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    DON'T and I repeat DON't use the r44. It's reliability is out the window. You will probably end up dead or out 250k in the first year.

    What I reccomend putting on a yacht is either

    1. gemini or bell twin star (great lower end helicopter for water ops becuase if one engine fails the helicopter can operate normally)

    2. A109 has good engine out characteristics but consumes more space.

    3. the best thing out there has to be the s-76, tried and true, it is rated #1 as far as oil rig and offshore helicopter ops go.
  8. Crewagency

    Crewagency Guest

    Could you please specify why the R44 is soo bad ?
    Also please remember that this is a Yacht around 32-35m and we have not the
    space to carry a Bell or a Sikorsky. Its only a Toy on board and be sure it will be used in nice weather. Also on our flight over Mallorca it was very windy and the pilot did not have any problems.
  9. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    get an md-500, it's very small, high performance, 4 seats and reliable.

    the r44 uses a piston powered engine. as opposed to a turbine one. turbines are about 500 times more reliable than piston engines and here is why.

    moving parts - under aviation conditions they have to move very fast at very hot temperatures causing cracks, broken welds blown gaskets, tossed rods, piston tipping, shock cooling ect... even backfires can mean the end of your powered helicopter flight.

    being a piston helicopter it must be light which means it dosn't have alot of inertia so autogyros become increasingly difficult to complete.

    You can't "flush" the salt out of the engine like a turbine so it requires breaking down the engine just to clean it
    there are 289 accidents in robinson helicopters currently in the NTSB database;

    [​IMG]

    and for Mcdonald douglas helicopters, you have 13,

    [​IMG]

    It's like comparing a Kia to a BMW, need I say any more?
  10. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    and s-76's don't take up THAT much room;

    [​IMG]
  11. YachtForum

    YachtForum Publisher/Admin

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    I've been away from this for a very long time, but I'm pretty sure there's a large number of pilots that would strongly disagree with you. As a former owner of an R-22, with a few turbine hours on my ticket, I'll be the first one to tell you the R-22 is a squirrely little bird, but it'll make a good pilot out of you.

    I believe the number of incidents you're referring to are directly proportionate to the number of units in operation. There's a LOT more R-22's in service! Also, bear in mind... the R-22 is used extensively as a trainer, whereas an MD500 is often flown by much more experienced, higher-time pilots.

    And with regards to reciprocating engines, in this case the venerable Lycoming powerplant... this engine is SO de-rated, it will probably outlast all of us... before it buries any of us.

    And by the way... helicopters don't "autogyro". They autorotate.
  12. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    It may make a good pilot out of you,

    for an R22.

    Once used to the r22's Tbar, going back to a normal center stick is like learning how to fly all over again.

    the Oh6/md500 has more hours under it's belt than the r44/r22 combined. Not to mention combat.

    It would be highly irresponsible of me or anyone to reccomend someone to fly an r44 OFFSHORE. Even if you have popout floats and mustang jackets your chance of survival is about 1 in 5, most of the time, the floats popout after the helicopter has hit the water and flips it trapping the people inside and drowning the occupents.

    It's like playing russian roulette with one bullet and a single shot rifle just becuase you don't want to spend to money on a revolver. You know it's bound to happen eventually. Unless you just want to see first hand how fast the local coast guard station can get their 50+ year old geezers out of bed at 2am to come get you, I would spend the extra money and buy a turbine.

    dealing with peoples lives is no joke.
  13. YachtForum

    YachtForum Publisher/Admin

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    The number of hours logged by MD500's is higher because they have been in service for many more years. The first R-22 spooled-up in 1979, whereas the MD500 has been in production since the early 1960’s. And yes, because it’s used by the military, its accumulated a few more hours.

    I read an article a short while ago stating the Robinson had become the top selling aircraft (last year?) in sheer production numbers. A company doesn’t continue to build sales like this w/o having a solid product.

    Granted, the R-22 is a mere gnat compared to the 500. It has low inertia wings, uses old-school piston engines that need to go on a diet and there’s barely enough room for two adults that skipped breakfast. But… the R-22 is an affordable, proven and safe helicopter in the hands of an experienced pilot. Yes, the T-bar is strange. Get over it and go fly! ;)

    Don’t get me wrong… given the resources… the MD500 is my hands-down favorite. It’s an absolutely amazing machine. Smooth, fast, responsive and very aerobatic. I’ve got a few hours in the 500C model, which belonged to a good friend. He went in partners with me on the R-22 so I could accumulate enough hours to qualify for insurance in the 500. Just keep in mind, the 500 is roughly 10 times the cost of a 22, both in investment and maintenance.

    I’m a little unclear why you are stating the R-22 is less safe with pop-outs? Are you referring to heavy wing loading? In that case, yes… you could say this. Otherwise, I think the pop-outs are made by the same manufacturer and work identically to others. Not sure, I didn’t have pop-outs.

    It’s not my intent to argue. This is a forum about yachts, not helicopters, and there are people much more qualified to pass judgment on these machines. Again, I’ve been away from big birds for quite a few years. Still, I have no concerns with the R-22… only the people that fly them.
  14. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    Robinson builds the most helicopters becuase they are cheap and flight schools tend to not have alot of money laying around. That dosn't make them the best helicopter. It's like saying Honda sells more cars than Porsche so they must build a better product.

    my comment about the pop out floats was, most pilots don't have the reaction time needed to deploy them, or in most cases are so inveloped in the situation they forget about them alltogeather. I have personally seen 2 helicopters flip in the water trying to deploy them (I was on a boat thank god). You should no way rely on the floats, they are a last line of defence and should be treated that way.

    MD-500's can be found for 500-600k in good shape, if you can't afford that you can get a jetbox (bell 206) for 250-300k with some hours on it, or if you want to take more pax then the 206L is also only 650-700k. plus you can carry 2 for pax.

    please don't kill yourself, it will make us look bad.
  15. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    Great Help!

    Some great information for thought. AS for the question of the R-44 or 22 on the Yacht? You said it was for a toy? How much open water flight are you planning? That, for me is a big red flag! Also, it can just get two people, and some may find that space a bit cramped, and uncomfortable, but it will differ with each person.

    Great that you asked though I hope you keep asking! The bigest question is use from a Yacht. Are you planning to keep it on board while underway? Also Landing on a wide field is not that simple, but a 35m Yacht! Tail or bow position? I would say a steel deck, and have two people on the boat who know all the fire and safty drills.

    I hope this helps. I personaly like the S-76, or the Dalphine. But for a "Toy" they could be more then you want.
  16. Crewagency

    Crewagency Guest

    Helicopter

    First of all many thanks for all the info.
    We will place the R44 on board and we already order one.

    It will be used only near the coast and not on open water.

    The Yacht will be build in steel and alu superstructure in a Yard in Turkey.
    It will take 24 month until finish and so we have time to train the helicopter
    operations.

    We are also thinking about a hydraulic platform to extend the space for landing on the after deck.

    Attached Files:

  17. techmati

    techmati Senior Member

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    looks like a another vripack/RMK collaboration?
    very nice design.
  18. Yacht News

    Yacht News YF News Editor

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    The blades of the 44 surely looks rather close to the aft superstructure..Make sure your pilot does not get in the wine cellar!
  19. old.one

    old.one New Member

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  20. kc135delta

    kc135delta Member

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    on the zembra the r44 lands as far aft as possible then they roll it forward.

    When you say you ordered one I am assuming you bought one from the factory. If you have to fly it a long distance on the first flight be careful and check the blades twice.

    Robinson helicopters have this bad habit of the blades de-laminating on the first flight totaling the helicopter and the pilot. I also assume that you arn't going to have the pad certified for day/night or revanue landings. (if you have ever seen a yacht for charter where the chartee's cannot use the helipad this is generally the reason why)

    I don't quite understand what you mean about about an extendable landing platform? Sounds alittle scary considering if it broke while the heli was up you would have to ditch feet wet. Just a thought.

    Aircraft and Ships don't seem to mate very well on anything other than a dedicated aircraft carrier.

    Aircraft = needs lots of room (generally speaking)
    Boats = at a lack of space. (also generally speaking)