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Hatteras 60-65 long term with MTUs

Discussion in 'Hatteras Yacht' started by craigsduc, Aug 18, 2014.

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  1. craigsduc

    craigsduc New Member

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    We relocated to S Florida recently and have decided to buy a larger Hatteras SF to live aboard for a while while we decide where we want to buy a home. We have always wanted a pedigree older SF and recently saw a beautiful 1985 65 in the West End ( Bahamas ) owned by a seasoned gentlemen thats could buy anything....but opted for a repowered ( Cat 3412Es ) older 65 hat....that was stunning.... We have looked at numerous older SF Bertrams and Hatteras and have a deep affection for them. I found a nice 65 with MTUs with high hours at a very reasonable price and am wondering if this would be a better choice than one with rebuilt 1692s. Thinking the 4 stroke MTUs rebuilt would be a better long termer to own and sell someday....I realize Cats better choice but MTUs second best perhaps?? The 65 owner had owned a 60 as well as newer Hats and loved his 65. We looked at some 60s as well but sense the 65 is a better sea boat. Plan on keeping the Hatteras and bringing it up to high standards feeling there will always be a buyer of it down the road especially with modern power......I met a couple in San Diego that lived on their 1979 60 Hatteras SF for 12 years and loved it....and cruised it every year......so I know living on a 65 for 6 mod to a year will work.

    If we could spend more, we would opt for a Rybovich , Merrit or other classic long termer feeling again, there will always be a market for one.

    Thoughts of 65 with MTUs
  2. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hows the rest of the boat as it will have no doubt done some miles with high hours on the engines.

    Is the "reasonable" price reasonable enough to allow for two engine overhauls and still make it a fair priced boat?
  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I would say there are far more important things than rather the engines are CAT's or MTU's. Condition of engines, of boat in all other respects. While one may have an engine preference, I wouldn't see either brand as a deal breaker and I'd rather have either in good condition than the other in bad condition.
  4. Caltexflanc

    Caltexflanc Senior Member

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    There is an excellent Hatteras Owners Forum on the net with a few owners of this model as active members; would be another good place to ask.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I disagree with Olderboater here. When you get into a boat like that, that has aged and lets say is only worth $500k and then you're faced with $100k in rebuilds or $30k a year to service engines it becomes a big deal compared to the cost of the vessel. If the vessel is $2mill then a $100k rebuild isn't a whole lot of money compared to the purchase price. I'm guessing the MTU's are 12v183's and this post is in regards to them.

    The 12v183's run smoothly and quietly at cruise (but don't feel like they have a lot of torque) and are good on fuel but have lots of drawbacks IMO compared to Cat 3412's. Maintanence is expensive. They smoke a lot at startup and trolling speeds, even low hour ones. Parts are expensive and they tend to have a few inherent issues. The belt adjusting rod that passes through the heat exchanger tends to freeze and it's about a $4,000 fix per motor, it requires removing the heat exchanger, freeing eveything up and pressing a bushing in there and putting everything back together. Fuel leaks are common on them if you ever change the injectors, due to the copper crush washers etc. but can be worked out. Also the exhaust manifolds have o-rings to seal each exhaust port and due to age they dry out and you have to remove the boat's exhaust, drop the coolant, remove the manifolds and replace....I had to do this on a low hour (800 hours 1998 boat) 8v183 and it was about a $12k job. The other issue with them is the raw water pumps, they don't have a changable rubber impellor, and while they tend to last a long time.....when you have to rebuild one its about $4,000 and a new one if you want a spare is around $8500. The fuel injection pump is what causes the smoking issue and rebuilding the bosch pump is not cheap and to keep the engines smoke free most rebuild them every 500 hours...... Not cheap motors to deal with if things go wrong. ALSO don't EVER overheat one of them.....the earlier ones had issues with belts and if the belt snapped the motor would destroy itself before the alarm even went off........they came up with a fix for that though. Cheap enough to maintain if you don't have any of the above mentioned issues happen.

    That being said 16v92's are no joy either and have their own inherent issues....Every 65' Hatt SF I've seen was powered with 12v92's....and well, are the MTU's any worse, probably not.......but the CAT 3412 would be the best choice by a long shot if you can find a boat with them. Another thought is to go newer and smaller......
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I agree with Skippy J.
    Here in South Georgia; DDC and Cats are the reliable packages (Cummins for smaller HP). The MTU & MANs are just too expensive to maintain and repair.
    I would prefer the 3412 Cats.

    That said, If you're rich and famous and just want to go out on the boat, Dependability would be a next concern. Still lean to the Cats.
  7. craigsduc

    craigsduc New Member

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    I,m realizing based on comments in this thread as well as comments found last night on a previous thread pertaining to the exact 65 we were considering that was a 1987 65 Hat with 6500 hr 8 396 MTUs simply is not a good choice for us...at least right now. We had considered buying a Hat MY or CPMY to live on for a year while we figure out where we want to buy a home here in S Florida....but after looking at quite a few....we remembered we love SFs......and would want a SF when we do buy a home in a year. With that in mind, we knew we needed one big enough to act as a home for a year with a 10 year old daughter....hence 60 to 65s....

    Insurance appears to be a real issue here as the biggest boat we have owned was a 40 ACMY. Hearing 60 Hat SFs did not compare to the handling and ride of a 65....and after seeing a 65....we felt we would simply opt for the bigger Hat......I,m afraid we need to scale down now and would like to stick to a 60 Hat EB if insurance can be obtained realistically. If not , we may need to scale down more but I am very concerned as even a beamy 60 convertible could get small in a year.

    If money was not an issue, we would look at newer and be done..... knowing the upkeep and cost to maintain would be less than an older Detroit or MTU powered Hat. If we could find a 3412 Hat that we could get realistic insurance on and could afford to buy cash, it would be best.

    I also want to buy a boat that will always have a market for resale and feel these hats will always have followings....especially once repowered. Don't really care for the older Vikings.....newer ones yes...but not older. 54/60 Bertrams are other boats I would consider especially once repowered. Rebuilt 1271s would be my Detroit choice which limits us to 54s or hat 60s......but Cats OA 1st engine choice

    I,m hoping we can find the right SF to live on for 6 months or so as my wife and daughter truly want to do so....as they love being on the water as much as I do. Long term.....no as I myself seem to function best with a base camp to operate out of.....As much as I love boats......I would rather have a home and a bit smaller SF we could afford to own and use in the Abacos periodically now that we are 55 miles away from the West End....

    If I could find a beautiful teak or cherry Hat 50 to 60 with a low profile up galley, with Cats......for $200K or less........Id be done......but I,m sure most would also be done with that if it was possible.
  8. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno

    Perhaps a different solution,

    posted by Roger from BC,

    might be a satisfactory compromise.


    H2OHome.jpg
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    How much experience do you have on 40's and below? I think that's the key to the insurer. Some may be quick to say no, but I think others would consider that good experience. It's not like you're coming from a 12' Jon Boat. The first thing I would do is talk to some marine insurers or brokers and find out if it's an issue. Honestly, I find little difference in operating a 40' and 60' and often the 60' has more equipment to simplify the job. 60-65' probably much the same. The issue is when do you exceed an owner/mate, two person boat. Everyone has a different opinion, but in today's boats with thrusters, controls on deck, and other things I believe it's bigger than it was, especially if the boat is really set up for owner/operator. The other thing is you might convince the insurer by using a captain x number of days when purchasing to train and familiarize you.

    I also believe you're right in considering Hatteras will be among the easier to resell, but the fact they hold value means you pay for it upfront too. And don't assume any boat will be easy to resell at close to what you paid. The market is too fickle. Some boats sell fast and you wonder why. Other great boats sit.

    Just don't assume the insurance is a deal breaker until talking to more insurers.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Boats that are well maintained, used often, and are priced correctly usually sell right away. I have run boats that are well maintained but hardly used, and all kinds of things break once you start using them. I did that on a 58' that was a 1998 that the owner took in partial trade a few years back, it had 660hours. We put over 200 hours on it in a year, and had about $60k in mysterious issues,breakage that wouldn't have happened if the boat was used regularly.

    Most insurance companies only allow about a 10' jump before requiring a Captain for the first year. BUT, if he's using it as a liveaboard, so what, find a Captain like myself that can run the boat or assist the owner for the 1-2 days a month they want to go fishing or ditch cruising and the odd trip here and there for the first year. There is a ton of difference between a 40'+60' SF in operation. You leave a dockline on in a 40' and put it in gear, chances are it will come tight on the dockline and sit there and bounce off of the piling, put a 60' in gear and do that and you're pulling down 15' of dock. There is a lot more weight and mass there. You run aground in a $400k 40' and props/shafts are $25k, do that in a $400k 60' and you're looking at $65k+.
  11. craigsduc

    craigsduc New Member

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    Good information and no surprises as it is all common sense to me....Weve looked at Sfs for a while and it seems every time....we get excited about older big Hats and come to reality as we get more serious . I talked with a gentleman in Melbourne today that lived on a 48 Pacemaker for 10 years with his wife and it was some of the best living they have done....another couple 12 years on a 1979 60 Hat EB SF I met and they said the same thing.....I know we could do it for a while and are going to give it a go.....I,m going to look at a 54 Bertram with fresh 1271s and two 52 Eggs tomorrow in S Florida. One of the Eggs has 2900 hour 3406E Cats and appears to stand really tall....Its no Hat or Bertram is the only issue... for resale and bullet proof aspects....but worth a look too as they aren't Silvertons either ( I owned one )....I know a 54 Bertram is more doable than a 65 Hat.....financially and operationally ........I really would like to find a clean 54 Bertram with low hr 1271s or a similar Hat 55...maybe 60eb.......MTUs now really concern me and I intend on avoiding them due to cost in parts alone. $8500 for a new water pump??? MB must be really proud of their parts or.........

    If I can find a Cat powered Hat or Bertram in my price range...it would be off the charts but not expecting it...I,m actually now OK with a 1271 boat if its well kept, has been rebuilt and surveys well. I can see through a rattle canned over sprayed engine/engine room detailing which is a big issue to me and indicates an owner that might have taken other short cuts during his ownership.... This boat search may also take time too which I accept.... I saw a 1978 Bertram 54 with 1292s years ago that had an incredible salon/galley layout in San Diego but the engines were tired....and the ask was $450K....back then. The project cost the owner over $400K then.......so I know there are boats out there that have had mega $ thrown at them by owners with deep pockets....that simply can accept the loss..... Hell, Ive done it and sold to lucky buyers myself..... maybe its my time to benefit!

    Regarding a late 90s 52 Egg with 3406Es, am I foolish to think there will be a market for it as well someday when I opt to sell vs a great condition 1271 54 Bertram? My feeling is I would sell a 52 egg to buy a 54 Bertram...but would not go the opposite direction...... I am hoping the 54 shows well and I can sell my 05 Pursuit 3370 Offshore to buy it or the seller would take it in trade....feeling the Bertram is the smarter boat to buy for the same money.....If the egg with 3406Es is a smarter buy......please advise.....

    thanks guys!!!
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    There is a lot to be said for going a decade newer. More updated and up to date systems. Less age related issues. Egg Harbor builds a pretty decent boat and the newer ones are based off of a Michael Peters hull. Cat 3406's are extremely reliable and basically what morphed into the C18, probably the most bulletproof engine in their current line-up, not that the others aren't good. A 50' Post is a very roomy boat for it's size as well and you can get newer there as well. It's also very stable due to it's beam. A 58' Searay is another option and a simple boat, but maybe not as spacious as a SF and has a lot of steps. Im not a 54' Bertram fan by any means. They ride pretty good when running but aside from that I don't like how they laid out their engine rooms and systems, the cockpit sole issues and just the boat itself, although many people love them. There are also plenty of customs to choose from, the customs will usually be a heck of a lot faster and a heck of a lot better on fuel. Check out something like a Jim Smith....there's a 56' on the Market with newer 1050 mans, 37 knot cruise probably around 2 gpm......asking $495k......
  13. craigsduc

    craigsduc New Member

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    Check out something like a Jim Smith....there's a 56' on the Market with newer 1050 mans, 37 knot cruise probably around 2 gpm......asking $495k......[/QUOTE]

    As our budget is less than $250K, Our options are simply more limited. If a seller would carry some (as conventional financing on age of boats we are looking at isn't available ), we could spend a bit more.... If a SF wasn't the type boat we wanted long term, more options are out there obviously....This live aboard thought is temporary which is leading us to simply buying a SF in line with what we feel is sized properly for our ultimate needs. This has led us away from the 60 or 65 Hats as we simply won't need a boat that big to cruise the Abacos.......Reality! A 50 ft boat is on the low side of the size range for the liveaboard part but certainly big enough for the long term cruising/fishing portion. If it was just the 2 of us, a mid 40s boat might work but with a 10 yr old daughter.....we would be in trouble after a month.........


    If the living on board for 6 months could be taken out of the equation, I would look at newer mid 40 SFs. The egg 52 looks to be in very good shape however....there seems to be confusion on the Cats on board....3406Es were listed on one site....3126s on another......brokers.........Will look at it as well as the 54 Bertram and another 52 egg with 183 MTUs.....but as mentioned....worried about MTUs.......

    Re the customs, is there a market for them down range??


    i
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    As our budget is less than $250K, Our options are simply more limited.

    i[/QUOTE]

    I was wondering how long before Capt J mentioned Jim Smith. As to your question about market, yes the better custom SF definitely have a resell market. The lesser known or respected customs do not have a very good market.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    $250k really limits things in the size you're looking for. Honestly, being budget minded and so forth, I would recommend this. But a 40-50' SF with 2 staterooms and live on it for 6 months knowing it's going to meet your needs and budget in the long run but be a tight fit for 6 months to live on and consider it an adventure. It would be easy to make do with either renting a storage space so the boat doesn't have too many personal items, or rent a nice hotel room/suite for several days at a time here or there as a change of pace. BUT your wife and daughter have to be on the same page with this. Getting into a 65' with the budget you have, the initial purchase price is not going to be the issue, HOWEVER maintaining a boat that size will be.