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Gyro Stabilizer

Discussion in 'Stabs, Tabs & Gyros' started by NelsonP, Sep 12, 2009.

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  1. NelsonP

    NelsonP New Member

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    Dear Members,

    I am considering upgrading to a Manhattan 70 from Sunseeker. Not having experience with Flybridge boats, currently owning a Predator 68, and being owner of only open boats, the rep we have discussed, proposed a gyro stabilizer, possibly from Seakeepers. I have several questions:

    a) Does it worth the investment? I am doing a lot of anchoring although in sheltered waters.

    b) Is it noisy? A possible position would be to place it underneath the crew bank, located aft, however with all sound insulation possible, I am still worried that the deckhand will not get any sleep due to the noise of the thing, if its on all night.

    c) Does it provide any stabilization, on cruising speeds? I am under the impression that it does not.

    I had a look at the Seakeepers site. Although it does answers the questions above, I am looking for a more independent opinion.

    Thanks a lot for your assistance in the above,
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I was on a 74' Manhattan. It was a pretty stable boat at rest. I don't think stabilizers are worth the money if you're anchoring in 1 foot seas (.3 meters)or less. I cannot comment on the noise as the boats I've been on that had gyro stabilizers were 160' +.
  3. CODOG

    CODOG Senior Member

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    If at all possible I'd suggest pushing the dealer to get you aboard one with and one without so you can make up your own mind. Contacting existing owners (whilst not always possible) is a logical step too. However good a dealer or however considered the advice from others is, get a feel for the affect at rest and underway compared to one without yourself if you can.
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Do you mean this Seakeeper Gyro system by this or the more traditional Vosper/Quantum type fixed fin system with it's multi axis gyro controller?

    The two are very different in construction and operation.
  5. NelsonP

    NelsonP New Member

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    Thank you all,

    Indeed a personal visit to similar boats with/without is by all means the best option. Hopefully the dealer can arrange it.
  6. onnohuizer

    onnohuizer New Member

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    gyro why oh!

    Best choice out there by far.

    This is not a toy! It works really well.It's an ancient ..super ancient principle and does not need water speed to increase efficiency.
    It's probably too good and that's why seakeeper have gone for a version with a hydraulic actuator/damper.

    It works best away from the center point of inertia.That would be the best start to try and fit it.
    Also have the generator power on board to run it.
    It will need cooling water. think of those three things and I believe the noise to be a lot less then a fin setup.

    They're modular as well.Very nice system and no need to pull them apart after 5 years in dry-dock!!


    Good luck..

    Onno
  7. Captain J

    Captain J New Member

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    The way to go is at present with Seakeeper, but look out there will be other manufacturers coming to market soon with similar possibly better sytems both underway and at anchor performance. Have two seakeepers on new Marlow 72E, they are not noisy but do take a bit of time to spool up and shut down, they are working to get these times down though.
  8. motoryachtbill

    motoryachtbill New Member

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    Seakeeper

    I have had the opportunity to run the exact same model boat with fins and with Seakeepers. If you want stabilization at rest the gyros help. At sea the fins were much more effective at moderate to high speeds. Fins get more effective as you go faster and more water is moving over them. I was on a 100,000 LB 72' boat that cruised at 17-18 knots. If you anchor out a lot I would consider the gyros, if you marina hop and anchor in protected anchorages I would go with Fins.

    The Gyros are mounted to the stringers and you know they are running everywhere on the boat if you are looking for it. It is a high speed vibration that you get used to quickly. You have to run the generator to have them function and it takes time to spool them up and shut them down. If you are 10 minutes to the inlet they will not be ready for a while, if you have 40 minutes of no wake zone you are fine. When you get to the dock you cannot just shut the boat down and walk away. A cooling pump must run for an hour of so as they spin down. Depending on the size vessel the weight of 2 units might be close to the drag of the fins. You also need 110 or 220 AC so you must have the generator on to run them.

    2 units take up a good chunk of space. It makes sense to have them in the engine room to keep the noise down.

    Hope this helps
  9. rixter55

    rixter55 New Member

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    Mitsubishi ARG

    I was lucky enough to get a ride on a Bertram 70 the other day. What a surprise when I found out it had twin Mitsubishi ARG's onboard. They spun up while we were headed out to the bay. I couldn't believe how well they took the roll out of the boat. sitting up on the flybridge was effortless. I have been reading about the ARG's for a few years now. They say that Mitsubishi took the work they did on the international space station and applied it to a boat. They have been building gyros for almost a decade now. Seakeeper came along a couple years ago and is playing copy-cat but with a more complex cumbersome system. They run their flywheel in a vacuum that needs to be evacuated quite often. I'm not sure but I think it has to be removed to do that. I was truly surprised when i saw how small they were compared to the seakeeper. It is really hard to believe that such a small device can do so much to improve the ride.
  10. YachtForums

    YachtForums Publisher/Admin

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    Well Rixter,

    You dug up another gyro thread and essentially posted the same stuff all over again, except this time your taking jabs at Seakeeper and going out of your way to promote the ARG? Let me do some math here... two of the same posts in two different threads, touting one product and slamming another. You're a brand new member and these are the only two posts you've made.

    Let me guess, you're a marine electrician that's aligned himself with ARG to install and service their equipment?
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Why don't you check his insulation resistance and see if you can connect his e mail addy or IP Addy to a known supplier?

    It will then be simple to blow his fuse or trip his breaker, membership and IP Addy from the boards.

    HV rules, bugger this namby pamby low volt garbage.:D
  12. Hogfish

    Hogfish New Member

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    My apologies.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
  13. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    And what is your motive for resurrecting a 6 month old thread just to make that point?
  14. Hogfish

    Hogfish New Member

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    I apologize, I am new to the site and did not pay much mind to dates when reading this post. You could have probably guessed this had you acknowledged my join date. I love the site and apologize for ruining your cyber evening. I guess the pickiness stems from the French Canadian in you. S'il Vous Plait Sir a.n.a.l one... (Part of my penance for the De-Lurking process : / )
  15. 14freedom

    14freedom New Member

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    Hey All,
    I saw the Mitsubishi system on Ship Shape TV, also with the 70' Bertram. They showed a side by side comparison of two Bertrams, one with, one without. The roll damping effect was remarkable but I would really question whether it's worth the expense if your in protected anchorages vs trolling all day long...
    ATB-
    Dan
  16. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Does anyone have any new information or experience with the gyro systems?
  17. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Gyros in general and in a boat

    The prinicipal behind gyros and their use for stabilisation and spacial orientation is quite old and well proven.

    The times for mechanical gyros in inertia platforms and artificial horizons in planes, land vehicles and ships / subs are over, as laser ring gyros without any moving parts assisted and backed up with GPS have taken over this part of technology. Their much smaller size, much lower power consumption and higher accuracy (no precession) have outdated their mechanical brothers for this purposes.

    But for stabilisation of bodies without aero- / hydrodynamic airfoils (fins), the mechanical gyro is still a valid (if not the only) solution. And for fast planning hulls, IMHO, the best solution.

    Gyros for spacial orientation have several gimbals for their freedom around all three axes. If the physical force of a gyro is wanted for stabilisation he can only have one degree of freedom (means one gimbal) because the second "gimbal" has to be the ships hull. Thats why a gyro can only stabilize one axis, for example the longitudinal axis, which means roll.

    The stabilizing force of a gyro is depending on its mass, rotational speed and position and type of mounting in the hull. The best results will be obtained, if the gyro is integrated already in the original design of the vessel.

    The big difference between the Seakeeper and the ARG gyros is, that the gyro in the Seakeeper system is spinning in a near vacuum. IMHO, this has a lot of advantages. The power consumption is lower, because the high RPM wheel does not have any air friction. Less noise is transmitted through the vacuum and the delicate interior of the sealed assembly does not pick up dust and humidity.

    The disadvantage of gyros in general are their high demand of AC power with stabilized sinus wave (big enough sized generator not to be run above cos phi 0,8) and their high spule up and down time. To get that heavy wheel up to that high RPM with the lowest flow of amps, you have to accept longer spoole up times. Because keeping up the vacuum in ambient air is very difficult, you have to pump out the air in certain intervalls. And these units are water cooled. Spoole down time is one more of their disadvantages. If a gyro looses RPM, it starts tumbling with a lot of stress on its bearings and gimbals. To prevent this, you can lock the gimbal and actively put on a break (like a eddy current brake) but when locking the gyro, you should not move the boat. The compromize is, allowing a free spoole down and dampening any tumbling by means of a little hydraulic system.

    During our aquisition phase for my sons IPS boat, we have visited and driven boats both with the Mitsubishi ARG system and the Seakeeper system. We found the the Seakeeper the much better choice as far as noise, power consumption and performance are concerned.

    The Seakeeper system was integrated in the early design of that CRP custom build and positioned in the beginning of the aft third of the hull on the forward bulkead of the engine room and on the longitudinal stringers of the hull.

    After the first season, my son is very happy with the performance and the maintenance issues of the gyro (and the quad IPS :)). The deep V hull with its 10 degree deadrise, specially designed for the IPS system without sprayrails, reacts nicely on the stabilizing force of the gyro, both on the hook and during various speeds. It is a compromize, a system with retractable fins and gyro would have been perfect but there was no space available for both systems. But multiple gyro systems for a bigger yacht are really expensive and space consuming.

    Below some examples and IMO the worst place for installation of a gyro in a boat. This monster under your bed must be a nightmare :eek:

    Attached Files:

  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The monster under the bed.......might provide for some "good vibrations" for some!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
  19. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    When operating the boat with the gyro locked or unlocked in calm seas, did you notice any peculiarities with regard to leaning into or out of tight turns?

    Did the boat turn better one way or the other?
  20. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Gyro stabilisation

    The boat shows a difference in reaction to steering inputs and in turning capability (angular speed). Means, with the gyro in operating mode, the boat is not as agile as without gyro stabilisation. But this is due to the physical principle of the gyroscope and acceptable. You will feel the same effect on a big motorcycle with a Moto Guzzy or older BMW type of engine arrangement or in a single engine aircraft with a big engine (acrobatic a/c or P-51, Spitfire or similar).

    Acting against the gyroscopig force with erratic maneuvering and pounding with high speed through higher seas, will put a lot of stress to the gimbal and bearings of the gyro assembly (and to the whole boat :)). Doing so will therefore reduce the service life of that gyro. For preplanned erratic maneuvering, I would release the gyro or better leave him switched off in the first place.

    But a 80 ft yacht is not a PT boat and combat type maneuvering is not what this boat was designed for. But in direct comparison, yes, the difference is noticable for the person on the controls.

    But with my little experience with gyro stabilisation on fast planning boats with shaft and prop, waterjets and surface drives, I do not remember the effects on the boats with the above type of propulsion, when the gyro was operating. The quad IPS setup however shows impressive maneuvering characteristics even with the gyro on, both at speed and in the slow speed joystick mode.

    I believe, caging a fully running gyro of that size and force and than maneuvering the boat around heavily, would destroy the gyro assembly or at least would rip it out of its foundation. But under normal yacht operating conditions and maneuvering, the average operator and his guests will not recognize that a gyro is working for their level of comfort.

    Spool up time can be as long as almost one hour, depending on OAT, spool down time with cooling required about 30 to 40 minutes. But if you put your ear on the housing, you will hear that the complete spoole down does take longer.

    But for the future, my son will most likely be very reluctant to give his boat to the old man. I think, he believes, there is far to much fighter aircraft jockey remaining in his father :D.