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Future for American/Canadian cruising?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by zudnic, Apr 5, 2011.

  1. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    It might help if Florida had some form of state cruising permit.

    Sort of sad but interesting:

    How many homeless people get US Reps phoning a Canadian province to ask them to give him a license?


    Even Blaine CBP made a comment:

    Rare that Canada deports an American who stayed 20 years as an illegal! I'm ticked ICBC shoulda just given him a drivers license so he could get a new one............................ :D
  2. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I can't understand why Washington State says he needs a valid foreign driver's license to get a new Washington license.

    There must be thousands of teenagers getting a new license in Seattle every day and they don't have a valid foreign license.

    Don't states issue driver's licenses to legal and illegal immigrants every day? Something is missing in this story.
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Ditto. Once his true name and prints are given he'll quickly have proof of birth or a warrant waiting for him. My money is on the warrant.
  4. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    He needs valid identification under the real id act. US Rep Rick Larsen anytime Canadians feel "targeted" by state and federal legislation is on Canadians side of the issue. He also usually gets the feds to cut red tape and make things less complicated for Canadians. Washington State also treats Canadians from all the provinces equal. British Columbian residents are considered residents of Washington under state law even if they don't live in Washington. University is the same price and equal access to most state services as if your a resident--Rep Larsen is the reason all Canadians don't need student visa's to attend American schools. Any time Canadians don't feel equal in the USA to Americans he is the one that gets the Federal government to do something either official or symbolic. Like the Department Of Homeland security treating Vancouver like an American city in umbrella blanket over the city during the Olympics. Same treatment and security they have at any major event in an American city--except the no standing armies thing didn't apply so instead of national guard units at the ready we had the real military enforcing the FAA flight restrictions in United States airspace and the umbrella of protection over British Columbia. Homeland Security spent $4 million building a command center so they could pretend a Canadian city was American and in Washington State.



    It was more a symbolic thing, without bashing British Columbia other than pointing out ICBC would not issue a valid license without an address.

    British Columbia deported a homeless person without valid id. They did so officially so even if he was actually Canadian. He can't get back into Canada because a Canadian Immigration Judge deported someone homeless with 20 years lawful presence residence ties in Canada. No American id to prove he has lawful presence in the US no federal identification. He could be lying that he is American thinking he'd get better treatment in Canada from authorities. He had residential ties to Montreal Quebec from age 10 on up to Vancouver. I forgot that part and link to full article sorry! 20 years in Vancouver and unsure how long in Montreal. :eek:

    Note the border patrol and a US Rep are involved! The US entire history has always been that of treating Canadians equal. Difference between Florida and Washington---ICBC is usually very co-operative paying claims on insurance. Selling valid insurance and trip permits for Canadians driving Washington State registered cars if they have Canadian drivers licenses. American insurance companies if a Canadian license holder drives a private registered American state car--they have a habit of not paying claims because their drivers licenses don't qualify them to drive in the United States. Florida just gives six months on a state issued temp license. Washington State law allows Canadians to use their provincial drivers licenses for one year in the state. So when companies like American Farmers Insurance tries denying claims because its a Canadian drivers license holder using a state registered car--Washington Courts can and do say NOPE you pay.

    Florida uses a more complex system because they don't have a neighbor relationship that a US Rep from Washington feels he can call a Canadian province for some help with a red tape issue.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    So where is this Larsen guy when the Canadian government tells the Washington State Ferry system it cannot employ a crewman with a DUI conviction on the run from Friday Harbor to Sidney?

    They certainly have a right to prohibit the crewman from leaving the vessel in Sidney but how can they say that WSF is not allowed to employ him when he meets all US and international requirements to sail on an international voyage? What amazes me is that the US State Department didn't tell Ottawa to pound sand. So much for the sovereignty of a US flag vessel and its crew.
  6. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    They try in UN official ways. Separation of state and federal jurisdiction. So sometimes things are done other ways.



    US Rep Larsen was asking BC directly to apply the rules equally like they always do at ICBC with Americans and Canadians. He was not acting officially basically saying and pointing out he was your licensed driver 20 years.

    The state also has away to make it known that hey we might not be able to afford the Anacortes to Sidney Ferry run anymore! Its mostly American tourists who use WA Ferry System. The province has its Capital in Victoria and when Sidney, and Victoria start freaking out about loss of American tourism. Things change much faster!!!!!

  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    ??? What was that post about?

    Washington State and some local hero's electioneering has nothing to do with the sovereignty of American flagged vessels and a foreign nation telling the U.S. who is allowed to work on that vessel.

    I find it incredible that the US State Deparment and the USCG did not make any very pointed statements to the fact that Canada has no say in who may be employed on an American vessel.

    Washington State shouldn't even have the right to consent to such a condition. If I were the director of the WSF system I would have gone out of my way to man that vessel with nothing but DUI veterans.

    Would the state have agreed if Canada had said they would not allow blacks or women, or left handed people, or people with more than 4 parking tickets to work on those ferries?
  8. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Found another thing of semi interest this time I'll remember the full article link................ :D

    Vancouver has a semi well known reputation as Canada's Amsterdam. Federal law allows medical use of pot! ;) So the Vancouver Police tend to be very tolerant in enforcing drug laws. The federal law also allows the city to operate a safe drug "injection" site. Drug addicts can inject street drugs into their bodies under medical supervision. Forget medical pot we have Heroine! Police are not allowed to arrest or detain drug addicts within a certain radius of the site. Yet we deport a homeless guy with no id based on his verbal indication that hes an American. :D

    Not always, but most times for pot smokers, if you stay inside the several pot cafe's in the city and don't bother anybody; neither will the police. One of these places started selling grow your own kits and seeds, in the store and by mail order.

    City of Vancouver's local government council is run by some very open minded former hippie types. The mayor owns organic co op run juice company and organic sustainable farms. The mayor got the waiver from the feds to make drug laws unenforceable near the injection site. Stopped the RCMP from harassing drug addicts when they don't have a municipal police contract with the city. Its not UN common for the RCMP to send back American drug addicts with no lawful presence in BC or Canada. No residential ties no immigration hearing UN-less requested by the deported!

    I wonder why CBP commented its rare to see a homeless guy without identification and not harming anybody. Seattle ended up adopting a more lose attitude towards pot smokers cause loads of Americans would come buy seeds and get busted at the border.

    Anyway, the Americans learned along time ago Ottawa doesn't give a hoot about BC only our sales and income tax! U.S Attorney in Seattle petition BC courts directly to seek extradition and the Vancouver Police rather have the American DEA feds instead of the RCMP!!!!!! To rid Vancouver of a nuisance.......................... :D

    Interesting the only jurisdictions bordering Vancouver all have municipal contracts with the RCMP. Canada like the USA--if your denied entry by one agent just come back latter and usually they'll let ya in. UN less you've been officially deported by an immigration judge!

    full article: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...xtradited_100510/20100510?hub=BritishColumbia

    Example of Vancouver's drug tolerance when the pot head former draft dodgers worried about a rumor Vancouver was going to enforce drug laws.

    http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...bc_marijuana_games_100126?hub=BritishColumbia
  9. GFC

    GFC Senior Member

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    Marmot, don't get your panties in a knot. I would bet that Canada didn't tell the WA state ferry system that they couldn't employ the guy with the DUI. They (CA) don't really care about who WA employs.

    They do have the right to say who can enter their country. Canada is very clear that they do not let people who have been convicted of crimes enter their country. They do have that right.

    Someone above commented that they could just refuse to let the person disembark from the ferry in Sidney. That's true, but more precisely, once the person has crossed the border on the ferry he has entered Canada and that's illegal under existing Canadian law.
  10. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    That only happens if there is customs preclearance in either the US or Canada,
    otherwise, until you clear immigration you have not "entered" legally.
  11. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Man that Transport Agent from Canada holding up that silly British attitude falsely installed via Canadian highly twisted history.

    America could send a Lawyer up from the state department. But British Columbia would probably need to do the traditional hanging him for treason like Canada did riel!

    Problem with Canada and America is its run by lawyers! And employs civil servants that are morons and only a lawyer can figure things out. So they always get all moronic!

    Again some in Canada didn't like some homeland security from America treating Vancouver like the US of A. Nor that BC Ferries is run by an American. But BC Ferries can't service American ports.

    I was watching British Top Gear on BBC America. They did an episode in America and they joked about visiting the colonies and the US state dept requiring them to be factual! Silly Brits the Empire no longer exists!

    Have an example of the US and Canadian thing. I was on the bridge of a BC Ferries crossing Georgia strait from active pass. On the radio comes: "USS blalahahaa at war" Someone on the BC bridge replied: we are not a Washington State ferry we have full radar and gps. If your at war turn off your transponder!
  12. GFC

    GFC Senior Member

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    Really. So am I correct then in assuming that all those people who sneak across our southern border who have been declared "illegal immigrants" are not really illegally here until they check in with US Customs?

    In the grand scheme of things I bet not many of them will check in with Customs. So I guess the US doesn't really have an illegal immigration problem, right?
  13. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Don't be silly. A ship entering a port is just a little bit different.

    When a ferry of the Alaska Marine Highway stops in Prince Rupert BC the crew is not entered into Canada. I used to work on that run and if I wanted to go into town I had to go through customs and immigration just like the passengers, if I didn't I could not go beyond the end of the ramp. No Canadian customs or immigration agents boarded the ship or got upset because I was walking on the dock. I was not considered an illegal alien because I was a crewman on the ship and had not entered the country.

    And for what it's worth, in PR the local customs and immigration guys would sell an indulgence to those folks with a DUI on their record (as many Alaskans do) so they could enter the country. There were quite a few AMHS crewmembers with DUIs who never had any problem working those runs.

    When a foreign ship enters the US, certain crewmembers may not be allowed ashore. A guard will be posted at the gangway to ensure those persons do not leave the ship. When a ship I was on sailed to a Chinese port and I did not have a visa, I was not allowed off the ship. The Chinese didn't consider me an illegal alien just because I was on the ship.
  14. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Canada can be weird and don't see why they do that to people who make an honest mistake but can still be an honest man!

    I was born in British Columbia. I'm not dishonest on purpose. Sure I've brought back smokes from the states without paying duty. Minor stuff like that. Had a few speeding tickets, license suspended as well. I've never been prevented from entering America.

    Its almost like that aboriginal 50% tribe membership by blood is about the only thing that will make Canadian born allowed to stay in the United State for immigration purposes. As long as your an honest Indian they will not deny entry.

    Canadians freaked about the passport required--a lot took that as an insult that as a Canadian citizen my verbal declaration at immigration wasn't good enough! Well the problem was Canada gave large groups of people not born in Canada citizenship. So even a landed immigrant could say they are a Canadian citizen and expect easy entry! America has a low bar for admission. They'll let any honest man in. But to stay 100% in the united states, you need to prove 100% that your 50% blood related to a Canadian Native American tribe......................... I was flipping born in BC yet the Indians get free pass and green cards handed to them! I've never her once they establish membership in a first nation even by 50%. The border allows free passage, etcetera.

    Canada should do the same--really annoys me that a non immigration officer can be such a (insert swear) to do that without authority. Other than upholding some common knowledge about Canada customs denying entry of those Americans with a DUI!!!! Why didn't any honest Canadian tell that public peon to get an immigration officer and inform these public servants the actual law of the federal government of Canada their boss!

    Friendship is a two way street cant be a 50% friend!

    Thats why I've been thinking how we private boat owners Canadian and Americans can come up with some kind of tribe. Work with these government agents so they don't question us if we are honest enough! Than when we are boating in each others waters. We can have each others back!

    We the people of Canada and the United States who are honest Men should always have free passage. As a member of this tribe. If an American is being denied entry for an past honest mistake. I'll use my rights as a Canadian citizen to inform that government agent my friend is proven to honest and is allowed in my COUNTRY! If that agent doesn't like what I tell him---well he'll be speaking with my elected Member of Canadian Parliament or his boss will also be informed of the LAW!!!!!!

    I'm seriously thinking that private owners need a group like this. Maybe we could make boating 100% hassle free like it once was. Make it a model and get government used to what we Honest Men tell them! Once we have a working model other nations can be added including the Brits! :D
  15. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    The Cubans rafting over to America. To establish a rule making rafting less likely the United States based on maritime law; wet foot (not in) dry foot (you've landed and are a green card winner after being checked out first).

    Old days thats how it worked for all vessels and people on board!
  16. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    I think with Homeland Security now really in charge of Immigration, all bets are off as far as wet /dry foot goes, since 911 the whole atmosphere surrounding entry into the US and indeed Canada has changed, this is to "protect" the security of the citizens and the Country, we may ***** and complain but doing nothing would have led to worse situations.
    I'm sure each of us has some axe to grind when it comes to dealings with the "security" issues, it what it is, lets try to make positive improvements to the system rather than dodge around current regs otherwise we are adding to the problem of enforcement.
    As far as the boating thing goes with cruising permits it is interesting to note that even US citizens are not exempt from that regulation, let's hope improvements can be made through proper representation.
  17. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    oooooooooooopppppppppppppp, Sorry, did not realize that proper names of female dogs was a violation of posting regs..
  18. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Agreed. When I first saw that security perimeter starting wondering how it could work.

    Know thinking how we can use the same concept on the water. Kinda like an open border NEXUS card for pleasure boaters. You need either approval from CBP or Canada. Canadians get approved by them and Americans get approved by us. Still have the cruising permit, but make it easier for honest people on both sides to freely move between each country.

    Get things back to the old days before the need for hassle! The water is still easier to patrol--the holder of these cards also must have a VHF station license; so the transponder gives any law enforcement piece of mind the people and vessels have been checked and cleared as friendlies.

    Anyone gets caught violating laws can get a perm ban from either country--hi punishment for the abusers and law breakers.

    People need to get involved with security and not look for ways to stay in the shadows to be left alone, etcetera. If works well other visa waiver countries can be added after the bugs get worked out!

    Turn the Pacific Northwest waters into a security perimeter and create our own Federally recognized tribe that within the perimeter zone we are all equal status! Even add commercial so crews don't have hassles in our zone.

    Sort of like this:

    Except no one government can proclaim the zone as their own! We grant our own pacific northwest park. perimeter around the zone. Try and bring back the days before the need for all this nonsense! Before Hudson Bay and US came in. Totally free travel on the water. Pacific Northwest as a test zone. Of no border in the zone.
  19. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Off the top of my head I can think of about a thousand boaters with VHF radios and no station or radio operator licenses. So you might have a glitch there. As for the no hassle zones, see if you can work out the fishing situations (territorial waters) while you're working it out. If you can work out just those things you might be qualified to become President or PM, and then the rest should be easy,;)
  20. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Its the tough part getting rid of territorial waters and this is ours or theirs...... How do you have a system that we the people are all equal no matter what our stupid governments do!

    I was born and raised in BC, 4 minutes north of the border. In away I'm almost half an American in thinking. Just got to find my United States recognized Canadian Indian tribe. You'd think that being native born in British Columbia would bring you close to that 50%! Can just see it me Mr White guy asking Canadian Indian affairs for status--to convince them Id need a lawyer!

    Thats the problem how do create a system that you don't need to be a freakin lawyer to go back a little when Canadians and Americans as we the people are pretty much always friends. How do we the people who friends keep the enemies out! Without being a bunch of lawyers and historians looking for common ground gray area's writing a some formal Constitution and non profit charter association! :D

    Think it would be easier to be PM or even President. Whats funny is the U.S Constitution before it was written was away for the Founders to weed out enemies! Hence the whole secret society conspiracy free mason stuff! The whole checks and balances thing includes the people amongst themselves, so no matter how nuts their government gets they can weed out the enemies!

    Its just all complex this open border on the water dream! I bet my Grand Parents didn't have to check into customs when they went back and fourth visiting relatives!