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Future for American/Canadian cruising?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by zudnic, Apr 5, 2011.

  1. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    Or has Canadian and the American customs agents been watching to much Glen Beck? Anyway, I went into Washington State from British Columbia, yesterday. Was looking at two boats, an Eliminator and Donzi. Told the U.S customs what I was doing, plus asked them a question. Do I need to have them search the title and have the boat cleared for export like a car. The answer was "no". This started a boat conversation. Long story short. For bigger boats, non trailer size, closest marina's to my house are in WA. So I'll probably store and get a slip at one in the states, like my parents. Ended up going inside customs to chit chat and not hold up traffic. Our discussion was on customs and whats the point of having them!

    source: http://www.caledoncitizen.com/news/2011-03-10/Columns/Ottawa_Journal.html

    So several U.S Border Agents mentioned the agreement above, I searched out the info because thought they be playing some April Fools joke on me. Thing is Canada and America are working towards setting up a security perimeter around our countries, like a border and jointly run it. The article mentions that this will not remove or replace the current border. One of the things I like about Vancouver's airport---Canada customs has set up self serve electronic kiosks to self clear. You scan your passport and answer questions, then hand the receipt to the door guy customs agent. Who most times just lets you keep walking. Its almost like having no border between Canada and the United States. I mentioned this to the U.S Customs agents, and they think that Canadian and American passport holders in the near future are going to be treated like NEXUS card holders. Apparently they've installed auto scanners that you hold up your passport and these agents think that soon the border between the two countries will become self serve.

    On the way back had a simular conversation with Canada customs. Asked them a few questions on importing a boat. Probed them for more information.

    source: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ibet-eipf/shiprider-eng.htm

    The rumor around Canada Customs is not only a automated process. They pointed out that both BC and WA have enhanced drivers licenses. Since I cross the border almost weekly, I have mine. Well the automatic license plate scanner when it reads my plate. It also gives customs my drivers license information. Always wondered why they never seem to take my license or ask for my passport. 9 times out of 10 I'm waved in. So they also claim an automated entry system like NEXUS for all American and Canadian citizens. Also a shiprider like program between each countries border agencies.

    In conclusion, since the media in Canada and United States are not talking about this stuff. Both governments are also semi silent on this issue. Thought Id share it here. Net, what it seems is happening slowly, is setting up a European Union type system between Canada and The United States. Both sides border agents, think that my leaving a boat in WA because its more convenient . Well it will become like having it at a Canadian marina. I'll be able to cruise into Canada, without clearing customs. We all will.

    Another interesting link read: http://www.pacificcoastcollaborative.org/Pages/Welcome.aspx

    It seems the Pacific Northwest state and province governments have also been somewhat secretive in getting ready for this future European Union type set up for Canadian and American North America. My speculation is that they will remove the border between the two nations for American and Canadian citizens, in away that will suggest safety. I thought this stuff was a joke, but with a little research it does look like we all will be able to cruise inside this North American perimeter without borders.
  2. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Canadians have always been considered like our cousins more than "foreigners". But their security tends to be a bit lax by our standards, mainly because they're not the target we are. Cousins like to visit with each other though. Anything that can be done to make it easier is great. No need for anyone to make a big deal about it, because the guy who gets busted there will still find it quite convenient. :)
  3. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Canadian/american cruising

    There is a serious disparity in the laws relating to ownership issues in the US vs Canada.

    If a Canadian purchases a boat in the US and regardless of where it is registered or documented it has to leave the US and clear into a foreign port and be absent from the US for a period of 15 days annualy before it can renew it's cruising license to cruise throughout the US , should the Canadian purchaser have registered the boat in the US and decided the foreign port to visit would be Canada, he will be taxed immediately on the purchased value, should the vessel be in San Francisco for example, the chances of visiting a foreign port on the boats bottom is remote.
    The same requirement do not exist in Canada for US purchasers.

    This is a very strange US customs and immigration law and appears to be formulated to discourage purchase of boats in the US by foreigners, the requirement to visit a foreign port indeed puts the vessel in potential contact with diseases and potential unwelcome visitors to the US as arrival say from the Bahamas only requires a phone call and then subsequent personal visit to Customs office within 24 hrs, lots of time to "unload" so I would state the the US is sadly lacking in Port security as it relates to pleasure craft entry. I speak of this from personal experience.
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    If a Canadian or other foreigner purchases a boat in the US on the US register through a Delaware Company I don't think this will apply to them.

    This has been thoroughly discussed here previously.
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Anyone can buy, own, and keep a boat in the US and there is no US law that says they have to document the boat or to get a cruising license or permit to use it for recreational purposes.

    Individual States have registration and taxing (pun intended) requirements but they have nothing whatsoever to do with customs or duties.

    If an American or foreign owner of a foreign flagged vessel wants to recreate in US waters then the cruising permit applies. Nobody is picking on Canadians.
  6. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Here is the extract from the CBP website, also, I doubt the US will allow an incorporation without at least US residency by one director?

    As will be seen below, non US residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses or able to document US built vessels.

    I also have case law stating that "vessels owned by non US residents are"foreign vessels" regardless of where registered.



    Resident aliens may apply for successive cruising licenses if their foreign-flag vessel was made in the U.S. or if duty has been paid on its importation provided that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.

    Non-residents are cautioned to plan carefully so that the mandatory 15-day period does not fall in the middle of a planned stay in U.S. waters. It may make sense to surrender your cruising license to a CBP Officer when you leave U.S. waters and then obtain a new one when you re-enter the U.S. Traveling outside of U.S. waters while your cruising license is still in effect does NOT fulfill the 15-day requirement.
  7. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    The only discrimination towards Canadians is technically the U.S border itself. Same with Americans with regards to Canada. I say technically, because really crossing the border legally as is done now, well its pretty easy. Once past the border, Canadians can pretty much do anything an American can do except for voting in government elections. Same as Americans coming into Canada. Really like equals except for voting rights.

    Immigration on both side, asks the purpose of the trip. If the inspector feels the traveller is not going to work, he or she is waved through. Whether you know it or not the traveller is given immigration status. There is no form or visa showing the status. There isn't even an application form. Still,immigration gave the Canadian traveller B-1 status if going to the U.S. Same visa status exists with Americans coming into America. Since neither carries a visa to prove this status. Canadians are exempted from American immigration and naturalization laws, like overstay penalties and needing to carry proof of legal presence.

    Most US states, especially ones that have lots of Canadians, have their laws geared towards making it easy for Canadians to be like a regular American visitor or resident. Washington State has a one time vessel identification permit for Canadian registered or other states. This lets non residents keep their foreign registered in the state without paying sales tax or registering it in the state. Its $30 bucks. If Canadian registered you need to buy the yearly federal American cruising permit. Same set up in BC for Americans and other non residents from other provinces.

    With this newly announced North American Security Perimeter, looks like America and Canada are removing the only discriminatory body of law, and thats immigration and importation of goods.
  8. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    And in case the above is unclear...here it is from the horses mouth.


    Resident aliens may apply for successive cruising licenses if their foreign-flag vessel was made in the U.S. or if duty has been paid on its importation provided that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.

    Non-residents are cautioned to plan carefully so that the mandatory 15-day period does not fall in the middle of a planned stay in U.S. waters. It may make sense to surrender your cruising license to a CBP Officer when you leave U.S. waters and then obtain a new one when you re-enter the U.S. Traveling outside of U.S. waters while your cruising license is still in effect does NOT fulfill the 15-day requirement.




    Howard Michael Noble
    US Customs and Border Protection
    11000 Terminal Access Road
    Suite 8636
    Fort Myers, Fl 33913
    (239) 561-6205
  9. zudnic

    zudnic Senior Member

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    One of the reasons President Obama and Prime Minister Harper have signed an agreement to create the security perimeter. Make it much easier for goods and people to move between the two countries.

    Again, the only discrimination for Canadians in America, is usually by how U.S Customs Agents interpret and apply immigration law. Id bet that a totally different answer would come from border agents on the CDN/US border. Did some research and it seems, just like I suspected. In the great lakes and pacific northwest, its a American/Canadian flagged vessels are pretty much equal and anything else is foreign attitude. Places that don't deal with Canadians on a daily basis, like Florida. Tend to see foreign and think that applies to Canada, even when it doesn't. Like a traffic cop giving a ticket he/she thinks is justified even when its not!
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    What part of the concept of foreign flag don't you understand? An undocumented recreational boat bought in the US by a foreigner can stay here and be used by its owner until it rots.

    A foreign owner is not permitted to document a vessel under the US flag regardless of its use. A non citizen can buy any boat he wants in the US and keep it here and use it for recreational purposes. An alien, resident or not, still has to meet the State taxation and registration requirements of the State where the boat is kept.
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    As can a US corporation, owned by a foreigner.
  12. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Marmot, what part of the US law did you not understand...foreigners need either an annual cruising license or a permit to move...this applies when the vessel wants to transit between two different Customs zones, failure to have same on board is subject to $10.000.00 fine//non appeal able..if you don't believe me write to Howard Noble at US Customs, oh..forgot. you know more than him...

    I have been fighting this for 12 months and have first hand experience..plus, what do you not understand about what they say on their website ??

    Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.
  13. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    As a further bit of info for the forum..not all foreign flagged vessels owned by US residents are even eligible for "successive" cruising licenses, if the vessel they own is not flagged under 19 cfr 4.94 b then they to have to do the foreign port visit annually and that is for US residents or citizens.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A vessel does NOT have to be documented, it can simply be titled in a US State or state registered and can be done by a foreigner. A non-documented vessel does not need a cruising permit. This is what Marmot is saying, that you're not understanding.
  15. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    What part of the concept of foreign flag don't you understand? An undocumented recreational boat bought in the US by a foreigner can stay here and be used by its owner until it rots.

    A foreign owner is not permitted to document a vessel under the US flag regardless of its use. A non citizen can buy any boat he wants in the US and keep it here and use it for recreational purposes. An alien, resident or not, still has to meet the State taxation and registration requirements of the State where the boat is kept.



    The above quote by Marmot is incorrect except for the part that foreign owners cannot document a US vessel...foreign flag does not exempt need for cruising license as stated below...




    All "foreign" vessels regardless where owned, flagged, registered or whatever, cruising in US waters between Custom Port jurisdictions require annual permits. or individual permits to proceed..clear as a bell...as shown on Government site does not matter whether foreign flagged or State registered. a permit is still required. Only exception..American documented vessel. No one is implying that this is designed to "hurt " Canadians, it's just very strange law.


    Resident aliens may apply for successive cruising licenses if their foreign-flag vessel was made in the U.S. or if duty has been paid on its importation provided that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Are you telling me if I own a Delaware Corporation and buy myself a boat in the US that is US registered I have to get a cruising permit to cruise in the US even though the Owner is actually an American Corporation?

    I have never heard before that US Flag vessels need cruising permits to cruise in the US.
  17. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    No, K1W1, am not telling you that, unless the Government decided to "pierce the corporate veil" you will be escaping the requirements. Individuals not so lucky.

    Now, if that corporation foreign flags the vessel in Florida and operates under a cruising license there is no State tax payable on the purchase price, where you may come at risk is the if during the period the license has lapsed prior to renewal and you are in Florida waters you are liable for sales/use tax if apprehended by law enforcement.

    https://taxlaw.state.fl.us/wordfiles/SUT TAA2 09A-025.pdf

    Individuals are entitled to the same exemption as noted above.
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Dennis, What part of foreign flag don't you understand?

    If a Canadian or any other foreigner wants to go down to Bellingham and buy a recreational boat from an American and keep it there, he can. He does not have to document the boat (he can't anyway) and he doesn't have to form some shell corporation to get around some imagined requirement. He certainly does not need to obtain a cruising license, as a matter of fact, he can't because the boat isn't a foreign flag boat until or unless the buyer wants to make it one by putting it on a foreign register, but doesn't that counter all the issues you complained about at the start of the thread?

    Just because a foreigner buys a boat doesn't make the boat "foreign flagged" any more than a German buying a Chevrolet makes it a Mercedes. It is no different than buying a house or a horse. As long as the State registration and taxation requirements are met no one cares what passport the owner holds.

    You are erroneously co-mingling foreign owner with foreign flag and the concept of documentation in a national ship registry.
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    US. State registered vessels are treated as US documented vessels in that they need no permit or anything to cruise between customs port jurisdictions. A foreign owner could state register a vessel if he has an address/location in that state, such as a summer condo.

    Foreign flagged vessels with a cruising permit also do not need anything else in order to cruise between port jurisdictions.
  20. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    That is not what I am hearing from those that do this.

    Ken, How do you get on with your ride in regard to this?