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Freon R410a

Discussion in 'HVAC' started by Bahma, Sep 25, 2018.

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  1. Bahma

    Bahma Member

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    Need advise as to replacing R22 air conditioning units with new R410a Freon split a/c units.

    Will the original copper pipes be satisfactory?
  2. T.K.

    T.K. Senior Member

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    The copper pipes can be reused provided the complete system is flushed. However, that is not the issue. Is your evaporator coil R410A compatible? The shell of an R22 compressor is not made thick enough to use R410A. It would probably blow apart. There is no reason to go to R410A if your current R22 system is working well. Why do you want to convert your current R22 system to R410A?
  3. Bahma

    Bahma Member

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    An invoioce relating air conditioner repair for the PO, contains a comment from an HVAC tech.....these units are 30 years old......need replacing....

    I ordered replacements not realising they used 410a....

    Now I have them, not to use them would be foolish.

    Big job, 3 separate installations, I do have new stronger copper pipe.

    Just thought I may save a wee bit of time and effort to use the existing ducting.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I would replace the lines if they're that old. Also I believe the lines are supposed to be larger for 410A.
  5. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Capt J, I hope you are wrong about needing larger Freon lines for 410A vs R22. I had the aft stateroom done and the Dometic dealer flushed and put on overnight vacuum test on the line and installed the new units. Also am having the salon and front stateroom switched from R22 to 410A. Again Dometic, dealer in Stuart. Nothing in there quote addressed running newer larger Freon lines. Hope my installations will meet Dometic’s requirements.
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Are you sure it's R410 and not R417? Split systems are shipping R417. Self contained (All in one) packages are usally R410.

    The R417 units are plug and play replacements for the R22 systems. There is about a 5% percent reduction in cooling with R417. The oil is compatible between R22 and R417. Same Evap can be used. Our company usally reclaims the R417 and charges the system with R22. Helps keep the boat a single gas. But if your replacing all systems, the way of the future will be R417 so go there.

    R410 all in one systems are a whole different beast. Higher pressures, different orifices and IMO; the compresser runs pretty hot. Here we usally go up a couple of Kbtu & turn the evap away from the in grill just to keep the system area a lil cooler while cooling the boat.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah, they're most likely 417a and not 410A and I had a brain fart. Probably won't need to run larger lines, but I sure as hell wouldn't use 30 year old lines over again with the higher pressure 417A and since you have the system apart anyways, plus running new lines you're going to know for certain that you have no debris in them.

    The 410A self contained do run hot, you can burn the hell out of your hands on the coils pulling out the air filter if they're running :eek:. But, the increased cooling capacity is incredible. The standard turbo blowers move twice the airflow and I'm reading 34F discharge temp out of one with a short 4' duct, and the previous R 22 had the slow blower motor and air measured 46F. I'd never go back to R22.
  8. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    I looked at my invoice for the aft stateroom unit that I replaced last winter and it is 410a. The paperwork for the upcoming units doesn’t say, although I assumed 410A. All of my units are splits with the air handler in or near the stateroom and the compressors in the engine room.
  9. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Your state room was a split unit or an All In One package?
    Ask your A C tech if that was an auto type insert in your paperwork.
    Or look on top of the evap unit. Big decal that gives most specs.
    I have not noticed R410 in split units.
    If your Keeping the same evap units, it's R417a.
  10. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Ralph not sure i am on the Same page with the terminology but in all instances I am changeing both the condensing unit (??) and the air handler (??). Maybe it is a typo
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah, they're most likely 417a and not 410A and I had a brain fart. Probably won't need to run larger lines, but I sure as hell wouldn't use 30 year old lines over again with the higher pressure 417A and since you have the system apart anyways, plus running new lines you're going to know for certain that you have no debris in them.

    The 410A self contained do run hot, you can burn the hell out of your hands on the coils pulling out the air filter if they're running :eek:. But, the increased cooling capacity is incredible. The standard turbo blowers move twice the airflow and I'm reading 34F discharge temp out of one with a short 4' duct, and the previous R 22 had the slow blower motor and air measured 46F. I'd never go back to R22.

    I would always change the compressor unit and air handler together if they're over 8 years old.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I see some of my confusion. The OP is Bahma.
    Motoryachtlover is asking questions also.

    Let me get a drink and help draw a better picture for all.

    Common SPLIT systems have two components that involve an evaporator station including the air fan.
    Also known as the air handler or Evap station usually installed in or near the room to be cooled/heated And a condensing station that includes the compressor and raw water cooled condenser tubes usually installed in the bilges or engine room.
    These split systems are connected usually by copper tubing of varying sizes.

    All in one or self contained units have all components (evap, blower, compressor & condensing tubes) in one tray.

    Thru the EPA and other F^*(*^g identities, the older Freon formulas that have been used thru the years are deemed unwanted.
    Newer Freon formulas and understanding them can get confusing in a hurry. There are a bunch out there but I'm just talking about small boat A C units commented on in this post.

    Freon R22 and R417A can not work with each other. You can not ad one to another.
    However, Because of similar properties and they can use the same compressor oil; If properly reclaimed and evacuated, one or the other formulas can be used in the same hard ware.
    Split or self contained. The older and less liked by those F^*(*^g identities is R22 and it's end of life and use is on the horizon.
    R22 does blow colder about 5% better delta. R22 has been the standard on boats for many, many years.
    It is common for a R417a/R22 compressor or condensing station to be purchased and installed on an R22 boat. Usually the pre-charged R417a is reclaimed and the system prepared and charged with R22.
    Common gas on one ship does make life easy.

    I'm just reading about something new to me. Some of my earlier comments may have been dated.
    Seems there is an Emerald series from Dometic. This is a new and true R410A, split system.
    I just started reading up on this since I got back to my desk. (cell phone work sux).
    I know nothing about this. The sales lit available on line sux (even at my desk).
    Per the sales lit, should work pretty good. I do suggest checking ventilation in the areas the condensing station is installed.

    Most all self contained systems are R410a now days.
    I know from my exposure on the All in One systems that R410 runs at a higher pressure and the compressor runs hotter. Uses a different compressor and compressor oil.
    The evaporator orifices are designed differently.
    There is NOTHING compatible between R410a and R417a/R22 systems but maybe the blower fan and electronic controls.

    Copper tubing is a wonderful material. However, even in the R22 systems it does develop issues. Proper inspection and reasoning in it's reuse is required.
    OTOH; 30 year old copper may actually be better than some of the new tubing. Never had an issue flaring lines before till last year.
    Not sure where it was made but had to re-try a few before I had a flair I liked. Never had issues before.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have a yacht I manage that had 6 r417 dometic self contained units, yacht is a 2007 euro boat. We evacuated all of the r417 out and put r 22 about 4 years ago. The r417 was only about 80% as efficient as the r22. Temperatures I measured with r417 were 53-58f out of the ducts. Same units with r22 and I measured 44-48f. Made a huge difference. We have since replaced 4 of the 6 units due to age and failures. All of the replacements are r410 and another 20% more efficient than the r22 units they replaced. IMO r417 is garbage compared to r22. 410 from what I’ve seen kicks ass and blows icycles.
  14. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Capt Ralph and J thanks for your time. I texted my installer in Stuart and the units are Dometic 410A. I did not ask him if the
    Units were the Emerald series. The paperwork on the new Dometic 410A unit that I had installed in SC last winter did say it was an emerald series. OP I am sorry if I hijacked your tread. Hopefully you have found my questions relevant to your situation.
  15. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    R-117a is mix of 50% R134A ……..46.6% R-125 ………& 3.4% R-600.
    Mineral oil is used in R-22 systems and not compatible with R-134A.
    Stay away from R-117A if your replacing a system. GO WITH R-410A Systems. R-410A is a higher pressure than previous common refrigerants, so you need a new manifold set (gauges) to work with it. As mentioned above R-410A also runs hotter, this gives you a larger Delta T, meaning more efficient.