Click for Llebroc Click for Nordhavn Click for Abeking Click for Burger List Your Boat

Fatal boating incident with alleged overloaded 34' Silverton

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by RT46, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. dsharp

    dsharp Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    240
    Location:
    lake jackson, tx
    Sadly incidents like this seem to happen every boating season. A towboat captain drowned a couple of days ago trying to assist a bass boat that was disabled in the mississippi . It was reported that they had a one year old child and a 4 year old on the boat. We lose people every year that think they need to fish overnight in the gulf of Mexico. I guess people fail to appreciate the danger of being out on the water.
  2. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,026
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I wont post the link to the below mentioned videos because Im pretty sure that is a "hot linking" violation.

    If interested in the video's you can google the below info.
    If YF authorizes the link i will post the links.

    There is an interview of the operator of this boat on News 12 Long Island, you can access the video on channel 612 or their web site.

    Also there was an interview with the mother of one of the victims on the Today Show with Matt Lauer. The Mom was also on the boat with her 12 year old son who survied. The mom states, she and her 12 year old son were on the bridge at the time of the incident.

    Both interviews appear genuine and truthful. Both indviduals interviewed suffered loss of family members during this tragic incident.

    both interviews seem to indicate and suggest that the boat rolled over suddenly and unexpectidely.

    The operator's interview indicated that the boat was underway and that there were at least two boats underway nearby. One boat possibly ahead, and one boat possibly behind the Kandi Won.
    The operator further states in his interview that boat turned suddenly and that he could not correct the turn, the boat then rolled over. The operator stated that he did not expect a 34' boat to turn or respond like that. The operator does use the words wake or wave in his interview. IT does not appear from the interviews that sever weather was a contribuiting factor for the incident.

    Based on the interviews and some of the public facts available, it seems that the boat was in fact overloaded and it is possible that crossing a wake from the boat that just past infront of the Kandi One mostlikely caused the boat to "bow steer" and change directions. The boat under normal load would mostlikely recover with steering corrections. Howerver, It is apparent that the overloaded passengers mostlikely caused a subjstantial weight shift during the bow steer event which contributed to the boat rolling over. Unfortunately and tragically, 3 passengers (yound children) were trapped inside of the cabin and died.
  3. wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    SE Florida
    It's pretty simple and never going to happen. You need to have a credential which shows, hopefully, that you have some knowledge of seamanship, navigation, and boat handling beyond the ability to write a check. Basically a Captain's license for anyone who unties from the dock in any kind of boat.

    Of course the general public and boat manufacturers and boat dealers would never stand for that.
  4. wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    SE Florida
    You might have mentioned it's a pay site.
  5. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    Here is the same News 12 video.

    Driver in fatal yacht accident speaks - YouTube

    Today you can access a free video news report on news12.com, click on News, you will then be at Home>News>Top Stories, click the next arrow at the bottom of the Top Stories column and on page 3 you will fine "Investigators search for clues in fatal July 4 boat accident" which is a fairly interesting 1:55 min long story.
  6. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,026
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    RE Pay site....sorry, didnt realize it was a pay site for non-cable subscribers

    the youtube link is the same one
  7. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2008
    Messages:
    935
    Location:
    Palm Beach, FL
    That's an incorrect assumption- I've run plenty of dinner cruises up and down the New River on a 150 PAX Skipperliner and on other vessels around the world. No crew and especially no captain can watch all PAX every second. If someone "sneaks over the side" and no one notices then you and the crew were not watching them "every second". That's exactly how people are lost. 15 is 385 less than 400. Your claim of watching all 400 passengers "every second" is clearly impossible.

    We can never be sure of what caused the boat to capsize. We can assume there were too many people onboard and that appears to be a reasonable assumption. Now there are calls for rules to avoid the circumstances which led to this tragedy. Perhaps those calls will result in laws which do avoid future repeats- but it's quite hard to outlaw stupidity. We as professional operators can take as many actions to avoid injuries as possible- but the only certain way to avoid injuries on the water no matter how closely we watch those around us both on our vessel and other vessels is to not leave the dock.
  8. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,147
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Here is the response from Transport Canada , re, stability for pleasure craft


    "Dear Mr. McMurtry,

    For pleasure craft of not more than 6 metres in length, the recommend maximum safe limits have to be calculated as per the requirements stated in the section 4 of the Construction Standards for Small Vessel (TP 1332) that is refer in your previous email.

    For pleasure craft of more than 6 metres there is no mandatory calculations of the maximum number of persons on board stated by the Small Vessel Regulations. As recommended in the information note after section 2.2.3.2.10 of the standard TP1332, the calculations methods in section 4 may be used for vessels up to 8 metres in length.

    Other methods such as the ISO Standards 12217-1 may also be used for pleasure craft up to 24 metres in length, but it is not a regulatory requirements for pleasure craft. Stability calculations as per section 5.3 of the Standards TP1332 could also be used, but note that these will normally have to be done by a naval architect.

    Regards,


    Luc Tremblay
    Manager Small Vessels "

    "
  9. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,147
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Has anyone on the forum requested similar from USCG ?
  10. Old Navy

    Old Navy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Russellville, Ar.
    I must add my 2 cents. First, I am retired navy (engineering), currently own a Carver 36 aft cabin, I owned a boat mfg. company for 10 years with boats up to 28'. Let me put some real facts on the table. The CG loading and stability standards are for boats up to 20' only, commercial craft come under different rules. According to my, still existing, CG manual for manufacturers the capacity formula for boats 20' and under, IN CALM WATER is as follows : Live Weight (people) = max. displacement - boat weight/ 7. The person weight is 130 lb. Now put this in perspective, the person weight is only 130 lb because this is the weight of a 180 lb man submerged in water. Remember these are rules for small craft with assumed low freeboard. All this being said, it has nothing at all to do with stability of a 34' inboard cruiser. I have owned and operated large boats for near 50 years both inland and offshoare, my conclusion is that boat operator was a criminal idiot !
  11. RonLL

    RonLL New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    central Texas
    "Horseplay" ?

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned the possibility of a youngster showing off, grabs the wheel and gives a good spin :eek:

    Might explain that unexpected sharp turn that is being blamed on a rogue wave.

    Not being current on control design, is there a lock-out of one set of controls when the other set is in use ?

    The idea of a boatload of well behaved kids and no playing around, just does not fit in my thoughts. Lots of room to address blame and bad decisions, then a valve failure might allow full swing at the rudder(s).

    Mr. Murphy is always around :(

    Just a few of my thoughts.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    10,158
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Short Memories

    It's now been less than 2 weeks since this tragedy, and I've already noticed the lackadaisical attitude returning with boats obviously overloaded, and parents giving in to children who don't want to wear their PFD if they scream loud enough.
    As for the poster who thinks the skipper was a "criminal idiot", it's hard to be a criminal if no law prohibits the action. Idiot implies that the skipper did something he should have known was reckless. How could he know? Monday morning quarterbacking is easy but there were a lot of people, in a better position to know, who could have prevented this. The manufacturer for one, and the PD & CG who were all over the area maybe should have recognized the danger of the situation and sent them back to the dock. These are the professionals whom one would assume know better but apparently don't.
    On duel controls, with electronic controls the station in use has to be activated. I don't believe this affects the wheel, but the operators hand would normally be on the wheel while underway. Autopilot though does lock out the use of the wheel if in use. The 34 Silverton has no 2nd station however.
    Given the number of ridiculous warning labels all over everything today from 'coffee is hot' to 'don't tie plastic bag over head', it just seems a no brainer that recreational watercraft should have a maximum capacity rating. If the boat's manufacturer can't (or won't) figure it out, and the CG can't do it; how can one expect a Sunday sailor to figure it out before it's too late.

    This boat evidently had the required number of PFDs aboard, but none were worn by adults and children below deck are not required to wear them. For those who don't already know this, a PFD is nearly impossible to put on once you're in the water.

    I expect that a boat operator's license will soon be required in NYS. Such a push makes good headlines for politicians. However, these licenses are rarely more than a way for states to make money. Classroom and on-water instruction should be mandatory. It is for cars and planes, and the same forces (and more) are applied to boats. This also does not address the problem that this tragedy spotlighted. All boats need a capacity rating.
    That would hurt sales though. So I don't expect to see any changes there.
  13. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    5,258
    Location:
    Sweden
    This was on IBI the 16:th of July;

    A US Senator from New York state, and the parents of a child who died in a boating accident on July 4, have called on the US Coast Guard to require stated capacity limits for recreational boats over 20ft in length.

    Having a license may help, but practice and experience is what counts. With this sudden wake in the dark, the best is to cut the speed and let the boat roll, but many are trying to "drive" out of the situation, which often makes it worse.
  14. Old Navy

    Old Navy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Russellville, Ar.
    Anyone who has operated a boat that is dangerously overloaded knows it instantly, the boat handles like a bathtub full of water. You can't make any law that prevents stupidity, you can only punish the idiot after the fact in hopes that it will make others to think twice. This being said, I, for one, am in favor of a qualification process for anyone operating a large boat. We have all seen and been in wonder of the lack of knowledge and skill of the weekend boater that does not have a clue about what he is doing or the dangers he presents.
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    7,393
    Location:
    My Office
    Hi,

    As everyone will no doubt have an opinion on this.

    At what size would you say this licensing should become compulsory?

    Would you see it as a one size fits all or different levels of competence required for the guy with the 60 ft sailboat compared to the other one with the 60 ft Magnum?
  16. Old Navy

    Old Navy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Russellville, Ar.
    Myself, I would put it into classes of size and sail or power, 20' and smaller, 21' and up.
  17. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    Cold Spring Harbor, NY
    Would you see it as a one size fits all or different levels of competence required for the guy with the 60 ft sailboat compared to the other one with the 60 ft Magnum?

    If you can't demonstrate prior experience, many insurance companies are requiring training from a licensed captain for the boat you buy. That might be a better way to regulate and educate, rather than let the gov't do it. That would be a FUBAR in my opinion.
  18. Old Navy

    Old Navy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Russellville, Ar.
    I think Beau makes a good point. There is no way one size or type fits all. There would have to be many categories of both sail and power. When it comes to large power cruisers I think there should be a requirement of progressive size experience. My insurance company did ask for prior experience prior to insuring my 36 aft cabin but they did not require me to provide documented proof of what I claimed. I don't think it is reasonable that just because a person has the means to buy a big cruiser he is safe to drive it.
  19. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    10,158
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    The Nassau District Attorney announced last night that no charges will be filed.
    "Ms. Rice said the investigation uncovered “gaping holes in the maritime regulatory system and contributory design flaws in the vessel.”

    The United States Coast Guard sets capacity limits on boats 20 feet or smaller, but says that annual reviews of accident data have not found enough capsizing accidents involving boats 20 feet and longer to justify a rule requiring limits for them.

    James Mercante, the lawyer for the boat’s owner, Kevin M. Treanor, maintained that the Kandi Won was not overcrowded. "
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    8,974
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    More correctly stated;
    There is not a law for being stupid. Nor for not having any responsibilities.
    I can imagine civil suits coming up. Lack of sense (no stupid law) protects the victims also when they followed the heard and went on board.