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Diesel Electric Propulsion

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by Crewagency, Nov 26, 2004.

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  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Die-cast Copper Rotors

    Wonder if any of this technology will find its way into D-E?

    A practical die-cast copper rotor for electric motors has been the “holy grail” for motor manufacturers for many years. Last year, Siemens AG, Munich, Germany, optimized the revolutionary rotor design. Recently, the company introduced three new product lines to the North American market through its U.S. operating company, Siemens Energy & Automation, Inc. The company claims its unique die-cast copper rotor design is one of the key elements that enables its Ultra Efficient motors to exceed NEMA Premium® standards.

    The new copper rotor technology is the result of several years of research and development by the Copper Development Association (USA) and the International Copper Association, both headquartered in New York City. Dr. John Cowie, CDA project manager of the research program, offered congratulations to Siemens on successfully bringing the new technology to the U.S. market. He notes that Siemens has been an important partner in determining the economic feasibility and profitability of commercializing the copper die-casting technology. “Siemens has raised the bar on electrical motor efficiency, and we look forward to more manufacturers adopting the technology. The use of die-cast copper rotors reduces energy requirements, allows motors to run cooler, extends motor life, and reduces overall weight and/or size.”

    In addition to Siemens, Germany’s SEW Eurodrive currently offers their DTE and DVE series of high-efficiency motors with copper rotors. FAVI S.A., Hallencourt, France, is producing die-cast copper rotors for use by other motor manufacturers, including ITT/Grundfos in Europe. They are also working with Electrolux and Whirlpool Europe on appliance motors and with Embraco in Brazil on compressor applications. Cowie says at least one U.S.-based OEM and several motor manufacturers are poised to enter the North American market, too

    Siemens’ three new product lines include general purpose die-cast aluminum, general purpose cast iron, and severe-duty cast-iron frame motors for use in a wide variety of industrial applications, including a definite purpose version, exceeding the demanding requirements of IEEE Standard 841.

    Siemens achieved superior efficiency in its new motors by combining the inherently low resistive (I²R) losses of high-conductivity copper squirrel cages with optimized rotor and stator designs. Other improvements include a redesigned cooling system, antifriction bearings, polyurea-based grease, dynamically balanced rotors, and precision-machined mating surfaces for reduced vibration. Specially designed insulation enables the motors to meet NEMA standard MG1-2003 for variable speed (inverter duty) operation. John Caroff, Siemens marketing manager for low-voltage motors, says these Siemens innovations will provide significant energy and cost savings to the U.S. industrial sector where motor-driven equipment accounts for 64% of the country’s electricity consumption.

    According to Siemens, the new lines of motors are available up to 20 hp. Over the coming months, the aluminum-frame line will be expanded to 30 hp, and the cast-iron frame line to 400 hp.

    Attached Files:

  2. n4nln

    n4nln New Member

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    Hybrid propulsion systems

    suggest you also look at Glacier Bay's OSSA Powerlite system, too.
    www.ossapowerlite.com

    not just propulsion, but certainly including that.
    very interesting technology

    -mo
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Steyr Integrated Flywheel Generator (IFG)

    Here's an interesting new innovation from Steyr motors, an onboard AC generator located inside the engine's bellhousing. Another technology arising from the new 'permanent magnet' technology applications.

    http://www.steyr-motors.com/products/products.htm

    Attached Files:

  4. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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  5. walkinginshadow

    walkinginshadow Member

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    What I can see it is DC train..........
    But I can have wrong:cool:
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    If you watch the video, it says (at about 1.20 minutes) its "200 KW AC induction motor"
  7. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Marine Hybrid Propulsion Systems, development & funding initiative

    'The rise in popularity in hybrid cars has inspired ICOMIA to invest in a marine equivalent.' .

    Thanks to the rise in hybrid road vehicles, International Council of Marine Industry Associations (ICOMIA) is dedicating resources to adapting the same technologies to boating applications.

    But since there are no fully optimised systems in the marketplace, technical writer Nigel Calder teamed up with marine engineer and ICOMIA research adviser Ken Wittamore and recruited a powerful team of experts to perfect marine hybrid propulsion systems.

    With ICOMIA’s support, the pair have been provisionally offered European Union’s (EU) Hybrid Marine (HYMAR) project; a €2.2m grant from the Framework 7 research budget.

    The HYMAR team includes EnerSys, manufacturers of the Odyssey TPPL battery, for expertise on energy packs; Victron Energy for power electronics and software development; Dave Tether of E-Motion Special Projects for extensive experience in marine hybrid system implementation; Bosch Engineering GmbH to help perfect the central system controller; Steyr Motors, for cutting-edge diesel engine and electric machine technology; Bruntons Propellers and INSEAN, an Italian research institute, for a world-class propeller development capability; and Malo Yachts for the test boat and related services. Steyr Motors is also the builder of a parallel hybrid that has won several awards.

    The HYMAR project will use the NMEA 2000 industry standard communications protocol, together with highly reliable automotive controllers, to form the backbone of the new, open system. This will ensure that hybrid systems can be built from any suitable equipment that uses NMEA 2000, expanding the market and bringing the benefits of hybrid technology to the widest possible number of users.

    Critical control logic and software for the controller will be developed collaboratively and will be the single most important outcome of the project. Additional collaborative arrangements will result in ancillary components, such as cost-effective high-powered distribution panels with the necessary CE and other certifications.

    HYMAR will lead the process for writing a new ISO and ABYC standard for electric propulsion systems and high voltage DC marine electrics, which will ensure that the wider marine industry will benefit from this research project.
    ‘We started fairly modestly but the prospect of significant EU funding has enabled us to attract the very best companies in the market,’ said Mr Wittamore. ‘Our consortium includes world class players with incredible engineering skills and experience. The EU funding is leveraging resources beyond our most optimistic expectations.’

    ‘I am becoming increasingly confident that in two to three years time we will have the technology for a broad array of hybrid systems and associated peripheral devices suitable for power, sail and small commercial boats from 30ft to 100ft,’ said Mr Calder. ‘These systems will go well beyond anything currently available in terms of sophistication, efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and ease of use.’
  8. Barron

    Barron New Member

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    Very interesting.

  9. Crewagency

    Crewagency Guest

    6 Years Ago I started this Thread here

    So what happened in the past 6 Years with D/E propulsion ?
    We are still at the same level.
    Ok there are some Ideas to reduce consumption and Owners are going more to long range MY or directly change to big Sailing Vessels and also often I see " Green Yachts " coming up.
    a. Mochi Craft 75 feet Hybrid
    b. Lagoon 42 Hybrid
    and some bigger Yachts do not need a gen-set over the whole night. Small steps but into the right direction I think.
    Also the SKYSAIL system seems to be installed now in different new build projects and last but not least the new Wally " Why " is using solar panels
    http://www.why-yachts.com/#/Energy-Specifications

    Nice but 160 Million ( estimated ) and minimum 3 Moorings ??

    Now last month the launch of E-Ship 1 with Flettner Rotor Technology ( from 1936 !!! )

    Attached Files:

  10. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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  11. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Profession Boatbuilder series of articles

    And now a good summary article to bring things up to this date, April/May 2013 issue #142 "The Hybrid Conundrum"
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    This system is being considered for a yacht I am working on the spec for.

    http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/seitp202.nsf/0/292d42e87306453dc12579ad0050a457/$file/12_10_OnboardDCGrid_Technical-Information.pdf

    I cant seem to et this link to post as such so it will need to have a browser pointed at it to view it.

    It links to the ABB Norway website.
  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    This is exactly the way the future of commercial shipping will go. The ABB development of the full DC Ship is watched by the commercial shipping companies very closely. On very large container vessels for example, the wheel house has to move forward to maintain the IMO 2.5 line of site for the man on wheel or you loose to much container storage. As with aft superstructure the propulsion system was located under the superstructure, it has to move forward with the hotel superstructure, accompanied by long propeller shaft or the power train has to be devided by means of diesel electric propulsion. If you are keeping the engine it in the rear of the ship, you loose storage space twice plus the exhaust stack sticks out of the cargo. We are now talking about very heavy, complicated and expensive and space consuming equipment. And thats exactly NOT what the commercial ship owner wants.

    The DC ship is the answer for this problem. Less Space, weight and much simpler configuration. Especially with the use of the modern brushless, permanent magnet DC-motors or pod drives and without the need for large frequency converters and with overall much simpler configurations, we will see more diesel-electric propulsion in commercial shipping. And maybe in more larger yachts. In smaller yachts IMO, we will see more DC-hybrid propulsion. A DC-Alternator / electric motor located on a PTO / PTI on the gear can act as a generator during cruise, as a booster at top speed or as leaving harbour device or for dynamic positioning, when working without the main engine(s). ZF has produced several systems like this (for the Mochi 23 LR for example, dont blame me for the design of that boat:D).

    Great find, very informative article

    Cheers
  14. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    I am a real fan of all this BUT...

    The problem is three fold that hampers this in yachts:
    First is mass and volume... simply multiple gen. sets weigh and take up more space than a propulsion engine.

    Second is fuel economy. In ocean crossing there is a negative advantage meaning the standard engine direct driven propulsion system uses less fuel. In stop and go or trolling around marinas the diesel electric is better.

    Third is installation cost. Its more.

    Ideas of hybrid systems with battery storage sound good and if you like to troll around marinas for an hour or two quite often this works but the batteries are a huge expense in cost, maintenance, safety risk and efficiency. The newer lithium ion batteries are better than most but are technically challenging and the energy density as to weight, volume and cost are truly poor compared to diesel power.

    Fuel cells are much better than batteries but they require special fuels which are not as energy dense or cost effective as diesel. But they are emerging technology... and you know what that means... frightfully expensive and problematic.
  15. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    You are absolutely correct. The battery mode is not usefull jet. Thats why I did not mentioned it. The system on the 23 LR is to complicated. This system would be much simpler in a complete DC setup. The energy density and costs, weight and size of todays Lio batteries are far from practical. And they are dangerous. Remember the problems, Boeing is faced with on their Dreamliner. Lauda Air lost a Boeing 767 and a lot of lives due to exploding Lio batteries in the cargo bay some years ago.

    Cheers
  16. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Hybrid propulsion is quiete common with commercial shipping. Single engine
    cargo ships use shaft generators on regular basis. The next step to a simple
    hybrid power train is easy. The PTO on the main gear is configured two way,
    called PTO/PTI and the alternator configured as alternator / electric motor.
    As cargo ships (container vessels) have ample electric power for the supply
    of reefer cargo, the vessel gets an emergency propulsion via the diesel
    generators and shaft motor. The shaft generator can also be used as a
    booster or as the sole source of electric power with the diesel generators
    switched off. The main advantage is the synergy effect on fuel consumption.
    A 10.000 KW low or medium RPM HFO Diesel engine for example combined
    with a 1.500 KW shaft hybrid generator/motor under 85 % electric load uses
    less fuel during cruise conditions, than running engine only plus two 750 KW
    diesel generators working.

    This configuration would work on a yacht too. If you assume a typical 50 to
    60 meter full displacement yacht with two MTU 16V4000M53R or two
    Caterpillar 3516 C around 1500 KW each and typically two 200 to 250 KWe
    diesel generators, the ZF gears could be configured with PTO/PTI and 200
    KW alternators / motors. You would receive the same possibilitys as above.
    400 KW of electric power will bring a 1200 to 1500 GT displacement yacht
    (slowly) out of and into harbour plus used as gens with main gens shut off,
    it will reduce fuel consumption. Boost power on a yacht is probably not of
    great importance, as a yacht of that size easily reaches hull speed with
    these mighty engines.

    But battery powered hybrid (what the automotive world calls full plug in
    hybrid), where the batterys are charged with shore power and the boat
    leaves harbour on battery power, is far from practical use.

    On sailboats thats a bit different. On blow boats, big battery packs are very
    common. Unless the (larger) sailboat is configured as a pure generator boat,
    where a continuous running generator is needed for electrical power and
    hydraulics, the stored electricity can be used for longer periods of silent
    and clean sailing.

    My own sail boat for example is configured as a pure DC hybrid sailboat with
    variable speed, DC diesel generators and large battery bank made of heavy
    2 Volt traction batteries (as being used in forklifters). They last forever, at
    least 5000 deep cycles or more than 10 years and act as (intelligent) ballast
    in the keel. All AC power needed is produced with static inverters. The
    battery capacity is big enough for a day of sailing or a complete night on the
    hook without generator. And that includes the breakfast in the morning and
    the use of hairdryers for the ladys. The batteries are recharged when leaving
    the bay under power. But for main propulsion (when not sailing), I rely on the
    sturdy power of MTU.

    Attached you will find a typical example or a commercial shaft generator /
    hybrid power train setup.

    Cheers

    Attached Files:

  17. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    I have long thought these schemes are you have mentioned are the most practical. My current thoughts on it are:

    Other than a emergency / at anchor generator set using the main engines as generator / propulsion power. Typically, on a two engine yacht these significantly reduce costs and wear and tear.

    The least fuel use system would be
    The main engines would each be coupled to drivelines to the props...
    The props would be pods or Voith Schneinder propellers (providing propulsion, positioning at anchor and stabilization).
    The engines would be clutched or transmissions mounting a generator system
    This is exactly like the diagram presented.
    The generators/motors would both generate power and drive the shafts through the transmission.
    The generator motors would be PM toothless wild frequency machines . Conversion and commutation would be handled by separate modules with only position sensors in the generator motor.
    Sizing configuration:
    Engines sized at about 20-30% larger than would be installed in a yacht with traditional propulsion only engines and generators
    Two generator motors per engine sized each at about 50% output of main engine... ideal is two different sizes one 40% and one 60% capable of main engine power.
    Operation:
    At cruise one main engine would be run with one in backup. The primary running engine would supply shaft power of about 30% output... and 50% electrical power (nearly full load on the larger generator) or 80% full load of engine. The second shaft would be driven electrically by the smaller motor one of the motors operating at about 80% full load. These are just approximation/guesses for discussion... as actual calculations and study would be part of the engineering.
    At anchor one main running the 40% generator at near 80% full load on the generator...
    The extra installed generator could be kicked in electronically almost instantly to supply the peaks.
  18. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I am now walking on thin ice, because I am not an electric engineer, but to
    my knowledge, brushless, permanent magnet, DC alternators / motors are
    self commutating. They dont need external boxes. The only external box
    on my sailboot besides the array of static inverters is the DC distribution /
    switch box. On the AC side of the inverters, it is a standard 230 Volt / 50
    Hertz, single phase, respectivly 400 Volt 3-phase AC setup. The DC side is
    running at 48 Volt in order to keep the size of the cables down. The
    hydraulics are run either by a PTO from the main engine (retractable front
    and stern thruster and power steering) or by one 400 Volt AC and 4 x 48
    Volt DC pumps (for the winches). There is an extra 24 Volt battery circuit
    for Nav electronics and some emergency systems.

    I am not the absolute specialist for the Cat 3516 or the 16V4000, because
    I am used to the much bigger MAKs or MANs. But as far as I remember,
    the power requirement for the cruising speed of a diplacement yacht (boat)
    and the consequent selection of the engine(s) is figured at a point were
    the specific fuel consumption curve is at its lowest, the torque curve at its
    peek and the power curve at the amount needed, including all margins
    required, like sea state, current, wind and unclean hull. Given the above
    mentioned yacht, I believe that we do not need bigger engines, as the
    torque of this engines is so high, that the additional 200 KW power draft
    is almost not recognized by the engines.

    Cheers
  19. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Why do you guys pretend that driving a shaft generator somehow provides "free" energy?

    "The main advantage is the synergy effect on fuel consumption."

    Sounds like the "feel good" effect ... A shaft generator still adds to the main engine fuel burn. It might produce a Watt for a tiny bit less than the DG it periodically replaces, but it isn't magic and it doesn't reduce the need to have adequate generator capacity and it doesn't reduce main engine fuel burn. It adds another layer of complexity and weight and maintenance and spares overhead.


    The reason ships use a shaft generator is because on the liner trades where very long periods are spent at essentially a constant and less than maximum continuous propulsion load, it is possible to extract power from the main engine which generally has a lower BSFC than the DGs. This allows the higher fuel consumption and higher maintenance generators to take some time off. It still takes more energy to produce electricity from a shaft generator than it puts back in the system. There is no free lunch folks.

    The acquisition costs of a shaft generator are high, its maintenance costs are substantial, its control system costs money as well. It can only be used in certain speed and power ranges that are, for the most part, limited to ships operating in certain trades and certain weather conditions. Standalone DGs are still required for maneuvering and outside the narrow range where a shaft generator is effective. Yachts hardly fit the operating envelope where such devices even come close to being practical.