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Costa Concordia sinks off the coast of Italy

Discussion in 'YachtForums Yacht Club' started by Fishtigua, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    I read where the fishing boat refused to give the tow over to the tugs.

    Is there a slavage fee that the fishing boat could charge for saving the liner ?

    Like " holy crap look what WE caught " ChaChing......

    Also if there had been a casualty during an airlift from the liner then the gossip would lean towards " why didn't they stay with the ship" .....
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Did anyone see the tv show on the Concordia on I think it was the Discovery channel? They concluded that the vessel was going too fast to make the turn, and that the turn was made late. However, it said that the vessel has a 160' gash through the side of the boat compromise 3 or more waterproof compartments. It also said that the vessel drifted from that spot to where it lies no and was deadship, not that the Captain deliberately ran it into shallow water. They also did not do their lifeboat drill with the passangers yet, and it took much much longer than the 30 minutes to get the lifeboats in the water and that many of them could not be launched because of the time they waited and the listing of the vessel. They should also have alerted the passangers to a mayday much earlier. So it sounds like a lot of errors were made by the Captain and crew.
  3. revdcs

    revdcs Senior Member

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    Which pretty much sums up everything that has been said in this thread so far!

    Hey guys - what a great forum with so much knowledge and experience. Okay, so we don't get it right every time and (probably like every other human being) we do like to speculate - but when the final report comes out, our conclusions probably won't be too far from the mark.
  4. saltysenior

    saltysenior Senior Member

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    i'm sure with modern age communication a deal was made between the tower and the towee....and this deal was made by people on dry land...
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    There are a couple of interesting articles about that. It seems the government of Seychelles wanted local tugs to get the salvage claim but since Costa had already signed a Lloyds "open form" with the seiner they had all the legal rights to continue. Costa had no issue with that either and defended the performance of the seiner as the ship made port at the expected date.

    If the seiner had turned the tow over to the salvage tugs the greatest benefit would have been to the legal community because the lawsuits and claims would have gone on forever.
  6. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    Marmot wrote:
    This is the 1st time I've read that Costa Cruises had signed any Lloyd's "open form" with regard to salvage of the Costa Allegra. Perhaps Marmot would be so kind as to supply a link to his source?

    To be frank, my personal experience of salvage matters are basically limited to having once read Wilbur Smith's novel "Hungry As The Sea". Accepting a Lloyd's "open form" agreement with a salvor is reputedly only ever envisaged in a "worst-case" scenario. Most ship owners/operators would always prefer a simple "towage" contract instead, limiting the huge risks when "open form" contracts are eventually abitrated.

    Here is Costa Cruises' latest update on the Costa Allegra:
    The French fishing-vessel TREVIGNON's owner/s, master and crew are probably wondering at this moment whether or not their "catch" will be suitably valued. Unless much mistaken, the TREVIGNON would normally be capturing tuna fish. A Blue-fin tuna fish was recently auctionned in Japan for US$396 thousand (or the equivalent of US$526 per pound). Will the TREVIGNON give Costa Cruises a discount on this tarif when applied to the gross weight of her passengers and crew "landed safely in port" at Mahé?! My own calculations, based on the average European passenger weighing 65kg (145 pounds) means that each passenger / crew member would be worth a minimum of US$76,270 on an equivalent "Blue-fin tuna / human-being" basis. Multiplied x 627 passengers alone = almost US$48 millions. But what's the true current worth of a 20 year oild cruise ship, with flooded main engines and generators, whose 1,000 passengers and crew have been using non-functionning toilets for 3-4 days - perhaps the scrap-value of the hull is more important than any clean-up costs? The Costa Allegra is closer to those Indian beaches where similar vessels are scrapped than the original Italian shipyard where she was originally built (or might go for a rebuild)... :(

    Lastly, Marmot, concerning
    I don't believe that I have the opportunity of editing / modifying my own posts after someone else has replied to the thread - perhaps you're especially priviledged with that possibility? Whatever, is that another way of saying you won't / can't / don't want to bother with responding to anyone with an opinion different or unsupportive to your own...?! :D

    Hey?! Maybe YF could incorporate special procedures before "poseurs" are allowed to respond to certain threads? These might take the form of requiring all aspiring "non-poseurs" to provide YF with full details of their industry qualifications, certificates etc. and after verification by YF, all the "non-poseurs" would have special priviledges to ridicule / dismiss all the "poseurs" when it suited them. Or you could have your own private - "non-poseur" threads where you could comfortably discuss the subject without having to accommodate any intrusions from the rest of the un-washed...?! :D
  7. revdcs

    revdcs Senior Member

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    Yesterday, being a member of YF meant so much to me. But now, after having read yet another of Airship's mind numbing tirades, I'm beginning to change my mind - and am rapidly losing the will to live.....
  8. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    revdcs, I endeavour to respond adequately, honestly, in good faith, and in good measure, that's all. It's true that sometimes one of my replies could be construed as a tirade. Obama does not read this forum, nor do Angela Merkel, Nicholas Sarkozy, Vladimir Putin and countless other world leaders with the means of actually changing stuff.

    All I can hope to change is Marmot's attitude within these forums on certain subjects. If you're really "rapidly losing the will to live" because I've somehow failed you, then I'd suggest you more correctly address your future demands at the RC Church / Vatican, the Dalai Lama c/o Lhasa etc.

    Sorry for that lame response, but it is Sunday, and my day-off... :)
  9. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Airship- before launching into one of your well lubricated posts you could do with checking all the facts you claim to post

    This cruise ship actually started life as a container ship built by Wartsilla in Finland, the Greeks had the first go at making it into a cruise ship, the Italians had the second go.

    MS Costa Allegra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It also sounds like the situation on board wasn't as well handled as we are led to believe.

    Costa Allegra crew were 'clueless', claims British passenger - Telegraph
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Has the Costa Allegra flooded recently?
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Maybe from putting out the electrical fire in the engine room, but I don't think I'd be using water on an electrical fire!

    Anyways, the entire situation is probably a very life changing situation for many of the passengers and something they will never forget. It will probably sour many of them from ever stepping foot on a cruise ship again.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    So for camping out on deck fit a couple of day , they are getting a full refund PLUS a fully paid vacation in the Seychelles?

    Not a bad deal...
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    They'll be getting a lot more than that when the lawyers are finished, especially when Costa's reputation of late is considered. As for "camping out", I doubt that's how the passengers who looked forward to a luxury cruise see it. Half of that "fully paid vacation" will be spent trying to get past the misery of the preceding week on a ship in tow with no hot water, air conditioning or decent food. What Costa has provided so far is just PR in an attempt to avoid having the rest of their scheduled cruises from going out empty.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I totally agree. I read somewhere that is was 3 days without running water, toilets, air conditioning, etc...... Most staterooms don't have opening portholes or anything, so it would be totally misery for a lot of people that have no idea what is happening to them. Not to mention smelling the fumes of the purse seiner as it's towing the cruise ship wouldn't be fun either.......
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Using my iad as ibam on the road It would take me too long to zoom into a particular part of Airships post to quote it.

    Here is reference to LOF you so desperately seek and doubt the existence/ use of

    NAUTICAL LOG: SALVAGE RIGHTS 2
  16. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    Pascal wrote:
    That depends on one's perspectives. It would appear that very many passengers (not sure if the ship's crew have been offered anything similar) have very rapidly and apparently readily-accepted Costa Cruises' offers "to prolong" their disrupted cruise aboard the Costa Allegra in local hotels and resorts etc. But you can be 100% sure that all those who've accepted almost anything from Costa Cruises in the wake of this incident probably "signed something", effectively waiving all rights to pursue the company at a later date. And at least 50% of the mission of the "Costa Crociere Care Team" rapidly despatched to Mahé. :(

    And who amongst us here is not dreaming that they'd wished they were also a simple crew member (washing dishes etc.) aboard the French fishing vessel TREVIGNON today...?! Much better than winning the average lotto jackpot by far... :)
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Airship - regardless of how bad your previous yachting experience was please refrain from filling the forum with your hatred of those who have gone further than you.

    The trawler in question is nearly 300 ft in length it can muster 5000 HP to the shaft continuous - a lot more than many of your supposed yet despised customers vessels are capable of.

    As a C/E with 30 yrs experience on many vessels an ocean going purse seiner would be my ride of choice over and above and pretty white boat that uses your services in and around SOF
  18. bradles1330

    bradles1330 New Member

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    Out of curiosity, why is it considered a salvage if it was only a tow? Because she was dead adrift? Commercial in nature? Aside from the size, why is it any different than one rec boat towing another rec boat who ran out of gas?
  19. luckylg

    luckylg New Member

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    Salvage demands three components: a marine peril, voluntary response, and success in whole or in part. Here, all three are apparent and so a salvage claim (if one is made) will be paid.

    The crux of the decision will be the degree of peril. A recreational boater who runs out of fuel on a lake would be a low order salvage. There's a little peril but the risk is minimal for any voluntary responder so the reward would also be minimal. Here, where the ship is at sea with thousands of passengers, a potentially hostile open ocean environment, pirates, etc...all of these make the degree of peril escalate. How much will either be decided in arbitration or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

    Many recreational vessels in the US are covered by memberships in the various organizations who claim to emulate AAA. These vessels have a contract for specific salvage services and thus are not volunteers for those events. The covered events are typically jump starts, fuel drops, basic towage, and ungroundings. Other events would not be covered and would thus be subject to a claim for salvage.
  20. luckylg

    luckylg New Member

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    IMO, this is absolutely wrong. An open form, be it Lloyds or any of the hundreds of others, is a way to agree to the terms of how a salvage award will be determined without negotiating the final amount; in and of itself an open form is not a "huge risk." In most salvage situations the events are fluid, change rapidly, and what will be required for success is in great doubt. It might take an hour and it might take a week. So, to get a responder to start work and save the ship an open form is agreed to and the value determined later. While preferred, a signature is no even required and I've had pure salvage awards upheld based on a verbal commitment.

    Imagine if the Costa Concordia had had access to competent salvors at the scene promptly after hitting the rocks. The salvors, with a signed open form set to work with pumps, air lift bags, and whatever other tools they might have had available to them, and they saved the ship. Hooray. What would that be worth? The nature of salvage is that the value is much higher before and worth very little after to most people. A small boat adrift in a shipping channel that needs a jump start will value it much more before then they will after the fact; especially when a ship is bearing down on them.

    A key to the open form is the statement: No Cure/No Pay. In other words, if the salvor is unsuccessful they get nothing. No matter how hard they work, how long they work, the risks they undertake, the losses they incur. No success, no reward.

    In the case of towage, if the situation allowed, then it would be appropriate for the master to request a quoted price ahead of time. This can be accommodated with most open forms (including Lloyds) either as a set fee or as at a day or hourly rate.

    As the master of a vessel I will gladly sign an open form if my ship is in a marine peril and I don't have other options available to me. Given the opportunity I will negotiate in advance. If the ship is genuinely in peril I will sign now and let the insurance company's attorneys fight it out later. That's why they're there.

    Two more points about open forms. First, it's my understanding that the Lloyds open form may not be enforceable for US flagged vessels due to the arbitration clause requiring arbitration in the UK. I've heard mixed reviews on this topic so it would be best to get a legal opinion. Second, ask your insurer for the open form they would like you to use in the unlikely event you need one. As a salvor I would also sign an open form presented to me by the vessel master if it met some basic criteria.

    Here are a couple of open forms for you to take a look at:

    Lloyds: http://goo.gl/amXXE

    Boat US: http://goo.gl/6Y7AS

    SMANY: http://goo.gl/BA7XX