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Classico 430 Mki RPM and speed numbers

Discussion in 'Ocean Alexander Yacht' started by hwhite, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. hwhite

    hwhite New Member

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    Hello, I am researching to purchase what will be my retirement boat, been boating the Chesapeake Bay for many years on express cruisers burning lots of fuel. I've run across a 2000 OA 430 Classico Mki with 330 Cummins engines, I have obtained spec sheets on the engine so know gph burned at different rpm ranges, but I cannot find any numbers of how this boat performs at each rpm range, can anyone help me out from personal experience or point me to a source?

    Brokers and sellers are of little use as seems these days everyone is afraid they will be sued if they give numbers and they don't hold up after a purchase, which I get but it is making it very difficult for me to make an informed decision on whether this boat is going to fit my fuel burn parameters for my planned several years of cruising.

    I'm somewhat surprised I cannot find anything out on the web as by cruising some forums can find numbers on most all the common cruisers out there.

    Any help appreciated.
  2. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    I have a '95 423 classico with twin 6bt@210

    I run at 1600 to 1800rpm and manage an honest 9knts.

    wot 2500rpm is about 12 .5 knts. when fully loaded 700g fuel and 200g water + gear.

    My boat has been modified with a 6' extension so it is really a 423 + 6 classico.

    It is gyro stabilized (westmar) and I do notice that helps a bit, maybe + .3knt. in certain sea states.

    Hope this helps, I think they are great good looking trawlers. I looked at several and did notice the early 2000 models (2002-2004) had very bad crazing issues with the gelcoat.

    Also notice there are not too many classicos for sale today.

    Dave
  3. hwhite

    hwhite New Member

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    Thanks for the reply Dave. I read somewhere the 430 is actually built on the same hull as the 423 but from comparing specs the 430 comes in about 5000 lbs more in displacement, so not sure how they made that work out, if true.

    Your numbers give me a start though, thinking for 9 knots probably 8 - 9 gph with the 330s, which leaves me wondering by they pushed the horsepower up on so many of these trawler 'type' boats, seems it kills the efficiency at displacement speeds for really little gain in maximum speed. You probably do better with the 220s at displacement.

    I haven't seen a 430 in person yet, hope to later this month when down in FL for the Miami Boat Show. From what I have read I have to say the boat appeals to me, raised pilot house, upper fly bridge, large upper tender deck, but the 300s are giving me pause. From purely a fuel consumption standpoint seems I could do almost as well with an diesel sedan bridge boat, 10 gph at displacement but when cranked up to 2500 or so cruise would be in the mid 20s rather than mid teens. That said the 430 as a boat to live on for 5 or 6 months a year is much more appealing. I guess I keep landing back to the Kady Krogens with their 2 - 3 gph for 9 knots, which are on my list but an exploring other options in the meantime. Unfortunately to get into a Nordhavn with a fly bridge is out of my price range, but they obviously appeal to me in many ways.

    The funny thing is for the last 15 years boating on the Chesapeake Bay with express cruisers I have always been a no such thing as over powered guy, knowing many builders offer underpowered standard equipped boats to keep a lower sticker price, I have always owned boats with the best, max, power package and have never been disappointed going that route.

    Seems I'm going full circle for my changing needs. Thanks again for your input, I'll continue on my research and hopefully get to a place to make an informed decision. Thanks also for the heads up on the gelcoat issue, will keep my eye out for that.

    Harvey
  4. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    Harvey

    If you have not already done so I suggest you read Pascoe's book "mid sized power boats". Pascoe it seems hates all boats except a nod on a very few makes and models.

    One good point he makes is that many sport fishing boats function well at hull speed and offer all of the creature comforts you find in a displacement hull. I was at the time in the market for a 35' trawler, ended up I purchased a 33 phoenix SF(one of his "pretty fair boat" opinions, which was as good as it got with him) on that advice and put on a 1000 hrs at hull speed. It was a very good choice for our needs and I got a good price on the re sale. I also learned that I can indeed be happy at 9knts.

    The mechanical B block cummins is a good engine at the lower hp ratings. I wanted to avoid the swac problems that can occur and there is no way of knowing what you are buying when used without pulling them apart to see what is left. So I was looking for the 6b or 6bt as a first criteria. Very simple engines that should go 5K to 10K hours if taken care of and of course kept cool.

    Putting 880hp in a displacement hull(2X yanmars) never made any sense to me. Any hull will plane given enough hp, not a fuel burn issue, which is significant but more of engine life issue. Performance comes at high cost and offers little time to react to issues that will develope.

    Me I like the 1200 mile range. For us it is the journey and not so much the destination.

    Pascoe feels that the fast trawler dynamic(high hp) was a marketing mistake aimed at the go fast baby boomers, like me. It seems there is a much narrower market than anticipated and from what I gather the market, such as it is, is back to efficency and durability.

    The difference between 12 knts and 9 knts, about one third of the range relative to hull speed on my boat.

    Pascoe is a somewhat controversial guy(especially for the sea ray folks) so I thought I would throw that in before I get flammed on my third post in here. For the $60 bucks it is worth it, even tho there are many pages of rant.

    I am very happy with the fit and finish of my old OA. It was repowered from natural 3208s to the B turbos. Outboard side of each engine access is fantastic and that to me means no deferred maintenance

    good luck

    Dave
  5. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    It is a very pretty boat, just looked at the listing.

    But the engines & gear look like they have been totally ignored. Be sure you get a real blowby test if you sea trial the boat. I would bet good money you need new cores and maybe even housings for the aftercoolers, the HE's look problematic also. The gears are leaking and the rust is pretty bad. Pull a zinc out of either the swac or he's, bet you nothing is there other than the base.

    I would bet you it gets hot and won't sustain wot for more than a few minutes. Big $ stuff that will considerably reduce the price. If it has been blowing saltwater into the cylinders then you have two handgrenades down there.

    I do not want to be presumptious, you probably already know all this. That is a very poor engine room and that is where the value of the vessel is. Marine age, not necessarly engine hours are what need to be evaluated.

    If you put an offer on this boat I would insist on ride first, see if it holds together at wot for 5 minutes, if so then have the engines and hull surveyed.

    All this stuff can be fixed, just takes buckets of money, money that comes off the top of the sales price before you even start dickering with sales price.

    No way will you will see 3nm/gal @ 8 knts. You cruse that boat at 12 knts, you will get 1nm/gal maybe. I think the displacement weights are the same between this pilothouse version and my boat.

    Sellers that wax a hull and have an engine room like that drive me crazy, almost as much as brokers that say "At 8 knots 2-3 nautical miles per gallon"

    maybe in a 3knt following current.

    Take 20% off the asking price first, then figure at least 15K and probably more like 20K to straighten out the engine room, god knows what the genset looks like. You are looking at $195K as maybe a fair market value if the hull and other systems are much better than the bta's.

    I've blown many thousands of dollars on hauling and sea trials, to confirm what I already knew. You must have an engine room you can eat out of. That one looks like a toilet.

    Again, you probably already know all this. But could not resist a soap box opportunity.

    regards
    Dave
  6. hwhite

    hwhite New Member

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    All very much appreciated Dave, thank you for taking the time to look and sharing your knowledge. Did you look at the one in VA or the one down Ft Meyers? I felt the same way about the engine room on the VA boat, a toilet, the FL boat looks to be much cleaner in the engine room. The Fl boat is also better equipped for cruising but seems they didn't use it much as only reporting 287 main engine hours. ??, that always makes me wonder. It has dual bow anchors with windlass set up, Algae-X system, which I need to read up on, sure sounds like a great idea but at this point I don't have any knowledge about the system, on my ever growing list to research. I totally get your point on the mechanical systems being in order and getting the full story on the engines. The Va boat is a 4 hour drive from where I am but I didn't even bother making the drive down to see it because of the engine room condition, also since I'm going to be down Ft Lauderdale it's only a 2 hour drive to run over to Ft Myers to see that one first hand. No offers will be made, promise, not matter how smitten I may become. :)

    I'm just beginning this journey and need to gain a lot of background and knowledge before even being close to an offer or purchase, which means I may miss some good boats but there will be others, I'm not in a hurry. I'm reading Robert Beebe's book now,Voyaging Under Power, I ordered the David Pascoe book last night that you recommended. I laughed at your mention in your earlier post, I have read some of his articles and surveys, having been a Sea Ray owner the last 15 years I get a chuckle out of some of it. I guess the best way to put his opinions into perspective was I read once that he said he wasn't a Sea Ray hater, he just thought given their resources they could do better, which is a valid point but also need to balance out that they are a production, price point boat builder. Personally I have found them to be the most for my money for how I boat now, Chesapeake Bay cruising, I'm on the upper bay but have ventured the length south to Norfolk and Va Beach, out the Delaware side to Cape May, hope to make a trip up to New York Harbor this summer if all goes well. Knock on wood, my Sea Rays have never let me down, but I know the limits.

    I have a lot more reading to do that's for sure, I definitely need to get up to speed on the engine issues you've pointed out, as the heart of the boat much more important than nice to have add-ons, what color the cushions and pillows are, or a fresh wax job. Do you think BoatDiesel.com is a good resource for engine background and knowledge? Any other recommended reading for diesel engines? I have only owned gas boats to date, current is a 2004 34 Sundancer. I have 8.1s with V-Drives, my optimal cruise is 25 knots, originally got .9 mpg, but I've hurt that some down to about .8 mpg now. Two years ago I added a Sea Lift hydraulic swim platform and now carry a 10'8" Achilles RIB with a 15 hp Merc two stroke OB, best investment I could have made for this boat, we get so much use out being able to just drop in a fully rigged dinghy. Basically hung 550 lbs off the back of the boat though with the lift and dinghy, but it handles it pretty well, only altered my running attitude 1 degree, from 4 to 5, using some tab I'm back at 4. Even with the fuel burn hit it's well worth it to make our boating a better experience, I strive for low hassle factor which the lift gives me.

    Interesting as well that you choose a SF as a transition boat before you moved to your OA, guess some of my logic holds up, always nice to know. As you say a good way to find out how 9 knot cruising is going to work for me, I think it will but remains to be seen. The earliest I would be doing any extended cruising is 5 years out, so may be an option for me as well. I think my first step while still working may be moving the boat to say SC for a winter, get the trip down to there under my belt, a few trips down during the winter to explore the areas there, then back up to the bay the next summer. Saving the good stuff further south for full retirement.

    Many thanks again,
    Harvey
  7. hwhite

    hwhite New Member

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    I should mention that I've had exposure to diesel engines from friends who have them and casual reading just not the level attained from owning and/or fixing them. From you comments above on the issues to look for it does bring to light how Beebe thought, keep it as simple as possible, which would be a single engine rated for continuous use such as a Kady Krogen with a JD. In the meantime I'll enjoy the journey of learning as much as I can about a whole different side of boating.
  8. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    Yes the one in Va.

    Boat diesel dot com. Pay the $15 bucks, probably your single best resource, Just do not po MR. athens, which is easy to do. I sure did.

    I did not notice the one here in Ft. Myers. Looks a little better but very low hours in a 13 yo boat is also a matter of concern.

    You are in the catbird seat. YOU have the MONEY and the TIME. Might I suggest you charter a trawler for a week and see how you like it. we had fair luck with Jung Charters in Sarasota and Florida Yacht in Miami, the later also has boats in Key weird (west) and in the Abacos. The difference between a grand banks 42 and say a mainship 430 will make your eyes pop out. The former being a trawler and the latter being a chlorox bottle. The OA is more toward the GB.

    Anything that looks top heavy(tender)--is. Many old salts won't even get on one of these for any length trip unless they are stabilized. $30K.

    Don't totally give up on the Va. boat. If the blowby test(really read up on that on boatdiesel) is acceptable you should be able to beat that seller into the dirt then below ground surface, any slob that does that to a boat deserves it. It is totally a buyers market in the used $100K to $500K trawler market and will be for the forseeable future.IMO

    The really big boats, well those guys always have money and the little boats, well those guys will always borrow to buy one. The boats you are looking at are hard to move and usually stay on the market for 12 to 18 months.

    I like the comment about a learning journey, it is and it can be enjoyable.

    Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.

    I know the broke ers at Bayside, if you would like I give them a jingle to see just how desperate THAT seller is.

    The Nordhaven N47 was my first pick, maybe trade up later. For now the OA is most enjoyable.

    cheers
  9. hwhite

    hwhite New Member

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    Hey Dave, if you wouldn't mind calling that broker any information about the Ft Myers boat would be appreciated, like you said the low hours for a 13 year old boat does raise some questions, was it laid up for a few years? Are hours spread out over all 13 years? Curious about that and anything else that would be useful to know up front.

    Have to agree on the Nordhavn 47s, nice boats, ideal in many ways, actually all ways! Also no Clorox bottles in my future, you are dead on with that one, totally agree. I like the GB 42 Classic but the lower helm just seems like such an afterthought, why I'm leaning towards a raised pilothouse.

    I have thought of chartering in the next year or so on a trawler, probably more to find out what I don't want in a boat, really think I'll be fine with 8 knots. I sail as well and have done sail bareboat charters from the Moorings 4 or 5 times in the BVI and the Windward Islands twice, St Lucia to Grenada and back once and a one way from Grenada to St Lucia once. I really enjoy the sailing so think I'll be fine giving up my 25 knot cruise. For future retirement cruising just don't think there is enough opportunity for sailing so think power makes more sense, also have the great loop in the back of my mind as well so vertical clearance becomes and issue, no option for folding mast on sailboats, unlike trawlers.

    Thanks again!
  10. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    Navagator makes a nice looking raised pilothouse. I've only been on a few and only at the dock. The ones I've watched sell around here go for lower bucks. Pascoe hated them as I recall. :D


    I'll get some info on the OA
  11. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    The opportunistic broker that solicited the members of this thread has been permanently removed and his address has been banned. We strive to keep YF free of these lower life forms.
  12. Trawlerbound

    Trawlerbound New Member

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    Geology Dave

    Hi Dave,

    I'm also curious in what you find out about the Virginia OA. I was at the yard a year ago looking for a GB and she fought my eye at the time. I'm going back to look at her again and would appreciate any info you have, thanks

    Magnus
  13. geologydave

    geologydave New Member

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    I don't know anything about that boat, just what the ad says. sorry.
  14. Gehl35

    Gehl35 New Member

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    Hi Dave,
    I'm looking at the OA 42 sedan model which I believe is the same version as yours. I would be interested to know more about your extension. I am comparing newer models with a higher price tag versus taking an older model and customising to better suit my requirements. I cant understand why any boat this size has an anchor locker access through the master stateroom.... have you had issues where you needed to access from underneath. I know later models they did change this.
    Thanks
    Murray