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Checking what you have designed

Discussion in 'Yacht Designers Discussion' started by Teenna, Jul 4, 2006.

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  1. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    There will be always independent designers. The point is that they have to work closely as a team member for the whole project. For example the designer can make some sketch and ordered a freelancer to build the surface with a not too expensive software like Rhino to present his ideas to his customer. Even this 3D surface model will not meet the requirement of the shipyard and has to re-engineered again. Yes reengineered so that the surface modelled can be manufactured and not only good for pretty pictures.
    Our high end CAD system is not that expensive if you are one suplier of a particular shipyard in north germany (believe me). I am sure that most designer can afford it!


    cheers,


    Jos

  2. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Hi guys, I just have to add that there should be no difference at all if the 2D is made right. And if it isn´t, the 3D will go wrong as well...:)

    And after all, the most beautiful boats in the world are built from 2D drawings as well as some bad ones, since 2D is all we have had the last couple of hundred years...:D
  3. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Lars,

    we have to make at this point a difference between engineering work and esthetic work. The beauty of the lines should reflect both on 2D and 3D drawings. 3D can do more than making pictures.


    Jos

  4. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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    Value add

    Point taken but any good independant designer would see the value for both themselves and thier customers moving to Full 3D, and many have already.
  5. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Sorry, but when I get the 3D-drawings and start to twist them on the screen, I just find it silly. It is not about design, only engineering to me. What I mean is that 3D doesn´t add anything to the design of a yacht, why I don´t believe any experienced designer will use 3D until the design is made and you are getting closer to production.
  6. Yacht News

    Yacht News YF News Editor

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    The attached image by 'JMR' looks very Kogo to me.....did you get your 'inspiration' from the yacht Kogo? The rendering looks very good. Good job!
  7. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    AMG makes a good point.

    Good design is an ART. Doesn't matter whether it's a yacht, a door handle or a pooper scooper.
    A designer that has the ability to visualise the end product of his design and work backwards to a drawing on a piece of paper is the one that will usually get the job done. Any break in that process including a customer that the designer can't quite get the concept through to will result in less than satisfactory results.
    Computers, 3d, 2d or a drafting table with a large tray of templates and few hundred dollars worth of mechanical pencils are just tools.
    You may or may not like the end result but unless you are the one paying for it your feelings don't carry any weight in the design or it's execution. The designer can only agree and continue the project or resign.
    If I asked the designer of my house what exactly I'd see if I were to walk in the front door, go five paces and turn 45 degrees to my left, he'd be able to draw it then and there at least to the point where I'd have an idea of what his thoughts are. I'd expect the same from a yacht designer.
    For engineers, 3D is the way to go.
    I don't have any experience with the design of a yacht but I've seen many a designer that can create an idea and then work with engineers to make that idea in to reality. One of the best circuit board designers I've ever met could visualise voltage flow and changes in bandwidth from input to output and do it accurately and quickly including the field interactions at different levels of the same board. He thought in 3D but presented and worked in 2D. The engineering work of making that board in to reality would take serious time and if the output result wasn't what was specified it always came back to the lack of communication between the designer and the engineers.:)
  8. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Hi,


    I experienced recently also horrible beautifully designs and who that have to sacrifice are the poor engineers. Making good lines but do not know how constructions looks like is bad! They just make projects runs crazy:eek: Sorry too :)

    No, my 2D renderings is not inspired from KOGO, since I never heard before about KOGO. The hull lines of Kogo looks not correct...
    I do not know if my yacht renderings is good enough, but I understand something about ART since I paint alot with oil painting :cool:. Not everybody can do art..

    So LARS, DAVID, KELLY what are your opinion about my 2D renderings :rolleyes: Thank you yachtluver for your comments about my drawings...

    Again and very important: everyone should work together as a team, even the designer has to work as a part of a team and sometimes he has to follow the law of mechanic.

    2D, 3D...etc are just tools that can help to get the project effectively in time and cost! Therefore big shipyards are moving towards 3D and engineering collaboration tools!

    BTW: surface modeling for engineering and building purposes tooks 2-3 month to do in close coorporation with the designer itself, it is not a quick and dirty action for marketing only :p
    After that construction works can start...



    regards,


    Jos

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  9. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Well that looks like a great yacht to me Jos. As for the presentation, I'm puzzled by the "leaning" shape of the background for the upper rendering. And the mirror image in the "water" on the lower rendering just adds confusion. I think simpler is better.

    Kelly
  10. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Thanks Kelly,


    well I tried several type of renderings to make the scene more dramatical and dynamic, but without sacrificing the focus on the subject. I also tried horizontal, vertical and diagonal elements to see the effects on the subject. Anyway thanks for the critics..
    There are really masters in concept drawings outside in the CG world, I mean really masters in 2D...


    Jos

  11. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Hi Jos,

    Well done as renderings, but you are not only making the engineers worried, you have to cut their heads off to get them in on two of the decks!:eek:

    Without a grid or measuring the headroom, it is very easy to create nice designs...:D

    Let´s see a new attempt! :)

    /Lars
  12. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Ha ha...Lars,

    do they use their heads anyway :D ? There are alot of anonym engineers who finished the project but many designers have name and faces everywhere :rolleyes: so they do not need their heads :D

    Okay thanks for the critics anyway, but I am asking about the rendering style and styling and not design, since I am still an amateur ;)

    So I have to find a dummy human somewhere and scaled everthing properly....Maybe you have some hint where I can find a good one. Maybe a woman dummy!


    cheers,


    Jos

  13. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    On a napkin you are allowed to cheat on proportions, but not in a computer drawing...:D

    As you can see on this (oversized to read) rendering, I have all decks with realistic levels and the deck with the long window inserted in the hull is extra high to let the light in better towards the center where the boat is beamiest.

    You have probably seen that I always start with a grid when I create a new concept, which makes life much easier than trying to adjust a design later...;)

    (This 122m/400´ yacht is Diesel-Electric if you miss the main engines...)

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  14. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    So at least I should take 3 meter height from deck to deck for a 75 meter vessel? Floor to ceiling 2,5 meter? Because there is no fix rule for every deck as I know. David maybe you can give some hints on this topic.

    I think the blue one with mirror on the water was not properly scaled, but the other one was properly scaled. Maybe the form confused your judgment Lars...

    BTW, I did those pictures in some of my spare time and made it in totaly 3 hours.

    Anyway thanks for your great pictures with alot of explanation Lars. Good work!


    Jos




  15. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Not really, I made a grid on top of your drawing but I will not post it...:D

    /Lars
  16. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Ha ha then I will sell it to asians :D I know people from north europe are very large too. It will be a problem to fit them inside the yacht :D Waste of material and space :)

    Anyway it was a joke...
  17. jmr

    jmr New Member

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    Folks,

    made some corrections...:D


    Cheers!

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  18. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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    Jos the line art is great, I suggest removing the outline around the wing stations as the shadow/shading effect should make it clear that there are protrusions here.


    As for the designer being able to draw and visualise in 2D, I believe this is not representative of talent, simply a skill learned, in design school.

    If I sound a bit bitter here, it's because I always dreamed of designing yachts , and in my research as a kid in Scotland, I realised that all the great classic yachts were designed by Naval Architects or boat builders.

    and so I put my head down and put my self through 4 years of the most challenging engineering studies in the engineering faculty. Of Course after about 2 years I realised that, in a sudden change of fashion, all the latest yachts were being 'Styled' by Product designers/architects etc. I was needless to say more than disappointed when in my study of the fine 'art' of Naval Architecture , the topics of proportions and form never made more than a fleeting appearance.

    Maybe that is why today I feel that the design and engineering of a yacht are all but one thing. (and perhaps, that the Naval Architect , when talented enough ;-) is the right person to do this.) Hence my keenness to design and engineer in the same integrated 3D model and process.
  19. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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    My Girlfriend (Illustrator 2D) just corrected me the talent of a designer has nothing to do with the medium they use, 2D or 3D.

    However, consider this, brain sees a form in 3D???, converts to 2D by Drawing. Reader of drawing tries to convert what they see in 2D to a 3D form in their head.

    If 3D modelling was as easy as Drawing ( and I believe it will be soon)

    Designer imagines 3D form and creates 3D model, viewer of 3D model sees exactly what they will get, no miss-interpretation.

    I know this is a tough psychological battle to crack but I am willing to give a free demo to anyone who doesn't believe me. Lars? Ill be in Your area in August , should I bring my laptop or just send a quicktime.??;) ;)
  20. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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    Well as far as I know anywhere between 2.5 meters total for Korean build container ships, and the cruise ships have about 3m- 3-5m altogether between decks. I will check some more drawings from yachts this week give you the real figures. Unless you get them from a certain N German Yard first ;)