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Buying a 60 ft. 1975 CC Roamer... Any advice??

Discussion in 'Chris Craft Roamer Yacht' started by Capt.JDavis, Nov 11, 2010.

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  1. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    This boat I found is certified for 49 passenger by USCG as a Charter boat. My intention to use it as Whale Watching boat in Monterey bay.

    We still have to do a survey and sea trial sometime next week...

    Boat looked in good condition with twin 12V71Ti model 860 HP Detroit Diesels @ 1900 hrs.

    I wish I could've find some info regarding fuel consumption.

    Anyways, if anybody here have any idea what to look for and what to be aware of I greatly appreciate. Especially if you're familiar with the handling characteristics of this vessel on the different ocean conditions.
    Are they stable? Do they give a smooth ride? That kind of stuff...

    Oh by the way, we are planning to be in operation officially on 1/1/11..
    To all of you will come from this forum 50% OFF !!!
    How about that?

    Thanks a lot guys...

    Capt. Jim Davis
  2. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    How about this? If you use YF to promote your business, we'll take 100% off your membership.
  3. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    I didn't mean to promote my future business here. The only reason I mentioned it because I've been hearing that the 12V71Ti Detroit Diesels are not well liked by some in commercial applications.

    Also, my other intention is that I may be carrying up to 40 passengers in that boat up to 4-5 hrs on the ocean (time to time with big swells), so, again, I wanted to hear how good a fit of a CC Roamer for a whale watching operation.

    That's why I mentioned my business and sorry it was my first post I didn't know mentioning business was a no-no to the forum members. But without mentioning it I can not get the kind of answers I am looking for.

    I take it back.

    Let's forget my tongue in cheek discount offer for the members of this forum and let's emphasize that I don't want anybody on my boat from this forum.

    Just help another CC Roamer owner on CC Roamer Forum please!

    How about this one ?:D
  4. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    CC Charter boat

    DD diesels were standard equipment on most tugs in the PNW, wonder why ??
  5. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    Thanks Dennis. I don't know why but one mechanic told me that these are like Ferrari engines and not good for whale watching type of operation with a 60 ft roamer.

    He was telling me that if I idle for an hour or two around the whales everytime we go out that will kill the engine by piston by piston because the lack of pressure.

    He said those engines were good for 100-200 hrs a year if they ran mostly on towards the high end of the boats cruising speed. They are not designed for 1 hr go fast than 1 hr on idle then 1 hr go fast again type of operation while totaling to a 1000 or 1500 hrs a year.

    It didn't make sense to me also, since old days US Navy used a lot of DD engines too..

    I don't know if he meant the 12V71Ti engines specifically for some reason?

    Plus here in California, EPA and California Air Board wants every commercial boat engine to be replaced by 2014 with Tier 2 Emission Standard Engines..

    I don't know what we will be doing then or how they are going to enforce that rule?
  6. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    The only real downside is the TI part, they don't like slow running for too long and at 1900 hrs you should be sure of the mechanical survey. We had a 60 footer here that did the WW out of Victoria and he blew out both 8-92 ti's . but he ran them pinned for 2 hrs, idle for one and then pinned again for 2 hrs, I think he got 3 yrs out of them before rebuild, mind you they had over a thousand hrs when he put them into WW service. That type of running is tough on any engine, at DD's are reasonable to rebuild and most can be done in frame,
  7. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    If your doing that many hours you can afford a rebuild !!!...lol...
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Find a new mechanic. 12v71TI's usually go 5000 hours between rebuilds. Idling for an hour or two will not hurt them. Just run them at cruise for 30 mins on the way in, or slightly higher.....2000 rpms........At 1000 rpm's the pair will burn 12 gph, at 1950 rpms they will burn 80-90gph. You can even run them for 4-6 hours at a 1000 rpms and then at cruise for 1/2 hour and they should be ok.......Make sure you're propped so they see 2300+ rpm's at WOT and have a tune-up done on them (adjust valves, injectors) and they will live a long happy life........
  9. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    Well this is my scenario on a daily basis;

    - at 9:00 am I will leave the harbor with my passengers and head out where the whales are which is generally about 15-20 mile mark. (Winter season ) Summer season thank God they are mostly within 10 mile range.

    So it will take me a good hr to get there.

    - Then when we get by the whales we basically stop or idle around just to follow their route for another hour to hour and a half

    - Then head back to our home port which is 15-20 miles away...

    Now my question is do I have to run these behemoths at top speed on the way out or in or will it be ok to run more conservatively in order to save fuel.
    I don't mean a harbor cruise at idle speed but instead of going 17mph what if I do cruise at 12mph on the way in and out and then run 1 to 1 1/2 hr idle around?

    Like I said, EPA here in CA want us to throw them away after 3 years anyways. So if I can get 3 years out of them I'll be happy...

    Dennis mc... you are right 1500 hrs a year is a dream for all of us. Most likely a 1000 hrs a year which is 200 days in my book will be the max.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    With the DD's either run them at 1000 rpm's or below or at cruise speed, over 1000 rpm's they start really chewing through fuel. It would be ok to run them at 1000 rpm's on the way out, idle around, then run cruise speed for 1/2 an hour to an hour on the way back to clean them out. You're going to want to be underpropped when the boat does not have people on it, so when you add 40 people and all of that weight you're not running really high load factors. I cannot see a 60' chris craft being certified for 49 people, that seems like an aweful lot of people unless the interior is gutted.......
  11. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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  12. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Sorry guys, DD certified Mechanic statement......

    Run those TI's at less than 1500 and watch the fuel wash the oil off the cylinder walls, they are a full mechanical engine, designed to run at 1750 for peak performance, running them "cold" i.e. idle speed just speeds up the wear factor and pays the mechanics wages....

    As with everything in life YMMV shorter or longer...
  13. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    Dang it, it is that bad huh?:(

    The boat doesn't look bad, price is right, already having COI from USCG was one of the biggest plus... But this engine issue is killing me...

    OK how about this ?

    I understand that it is NOT the ideal engine to idle for 2 hrs while we're with the whales.
    But it is ok to go where the whales are and come back at cruising speeds...

    But what does that translates in the real world experience?

    Does it mean that this engine will need to be rebuild at every 1000 hrs if I idle 1-2 hr a day and ran at cruising speeds around 2 hrs?

    Does it mean engine will become unreliable and start breaking down in the middle of the ocean?

    Does it mean they are going to explode like a bomb one day when we're happily idling around the whales? ;)

    I am having a hard time to believe that every 12V71Ti's always ran at 1500 and above RPM levels at 100% of the time when they are in service.

    Yet I see these engines somehow survived since 1974 on Roamers or on many other boats.

    Sounds nearly impossible to do so.

    What if it takes half an hour for you to get out of the Restricted Speed zone to reach the open waters on a daily basis?

    Who does hit the throttle up to 75% level as soon as they cast the lines at the slip?

    Because I am hearing the same sort of things since years for the most diesel engines; "If you keep them at idle you kill the engine"..
    But day in, day out they worked OK and sometimes even for years we did not do anything major other than changing oil and fuel filters.

    Again, what I'm trying to get is that will running an hour or two on idle or low speeds cause a 12V71Ti to go to the emergency room every week, or will it cause shortening it's life span from let's say 5000 hours to 4000 hrs between rebuilds?

    I know at least two other boats worked as harbor cruise boats and they've had the same engines and I know that it was not possible for them to run anything over 5 knots for the entire time when they are out. So I know that they are not running at their cruise speed RPMs and yet their engine has 6500 hrs on it.
    How can that miracle be explained?:D
  14. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    As others may state..these engines are bullitt proof, however, how do you figure wear factor in a DD two stroke, either natural aspiration or even turbo charged ?

    The most common method is via engine survey and this involves a boroscope inspection of the are of primary wear, i.e. the cylinder liners, these are usually produced at the factory with cross hatching, when the cross hatching is gone. the engine is technically ready for new liner kits as a minimum, however, many of these engines will continue to run along just ok, smoking lots till hot etc...

    Have an engine survey done by a certified DD mechanic and question hima s to expected engine before various items need repair/ replace.

    I doubt you will need to rebuild as often as you fear !!! get the survey done. real peace of mind.

    I almost bought a boat with DD t.I s 1200 hrs, survey showed zero cross hatching left, surveyors report...rebuild time.....owners report...but I only ran them at 1200 rpm most of the time, if long trip then 2450 prm...plus boat was underpowered, the original sales man told him engines were 455 hp....were not, only 425.... I had the factory run the serial #'s for the original purchase..

    Both scenarios outside recommended conditions.

    Just get the survey and enjoy !!!!!
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    While this is very true of the 92 series because they have such large injectors. The 12v71's run pretty clean. Do you know how many yachts go down the ICW because of bad weather, and never get up to cruise speed. It may shorten the life a little to run them like that, but the fuel savings would pay for it 5 times over. They're not going to have issues running them 1000 rpms for 4 hours, then at cruise for 30 minutes. I spoke to several DD reps about it, and they didn't highly recommend it, but said it shouldn't severely shorten the engines life.
  16. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    That's what I was getting too... I mean it is like having a Porsche 911 Turbo... It's impossible to constantly drive that car on the freeways at 80 mph. Even though that car is not specifically built for it, still, time to time you have to drive it in stop and go city traffic..

    Plus, and this is a BIG PLUS... Here in CA by 2014, all old diesel engines on commercial harbor craft working over 300 hrs a year must be replaced with EPA's new TIER 2 or higher standard compliant engines.

    So no matter what brand engine we have on this thing it has to be replaced in 3 years and I don't mean rebuild. It will be taken out, thrown in the garbage and install new stuff instead...

    Again, I don't know how they can do that or what will happen to those who can't effort it to do this switch. Nobody here in CA seems to have an idea...
    We'll all wait and see I guess...

    Now my big challenge is to find an able DD mechanic in San Diego who knows how to check this engine inside and out.
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Now my big challenge is to find an able DD mechanic in San Diego who knows how to check this engine inside and out.[/QUOTE]

    Finding a qualified DD mechanic ANYWHERE, should be pretty easy.
  18. capcsw

    capcsw New Member

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    those old roamers were never really run that hard to begin with.. Also, someone has "hopped up" your engines.. Originally those were 655 hp. I had a similiar set up in my 1986 Hatteras - hopped up to 850. Ran it all over the place (various rpms) and never a problem. Your charter boat will never run that hard - too much fuel for a unsatisfactory speed (15 knots loaded?) and too much spray. stay way out of the turbos and you will be fine, run them up full rpms every few trips to blow them out and then they will keep running for years.

    Remember, all things being equal, its not how hard you run a 12-71, its how much fuel you put through it as to its life span.

    Plus it will be a lot quieter - those flush deck boats are noisy inside!
  19. Capt.JDavis

    Capt.JDavis New Member

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    How they do that? I mean hopped up all the way from 655 to 860?
    Just changing the injectors or what?:confused:
  20. fantasymaker

    fantasymaker New Member

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    This seems like the sort of thing I would have checked into BEFORE I bought it.
    This engine replacement is gonna run ya a bit of green!