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Buyers Trapped in Feud with Sunseeker...

Discussion in 'Sunseeker Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jul 29, 2019.

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  1. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I'm dealing with a Princess right now, less than 2 years old. HUGE gelcoat cracking and bubbles under the gelcoat.
  2. 993RSR

    993RSR Senior Member

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    I owned a Princess for 3 years and it served us well. The quality of the boat was above average and her running characteristics were good (not great) :)
    Bigger and newer is better with Princess product
  3. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    This was essentially the feedback we have had here. What’s the alternative then?
  4. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    As far as components and quality of the boats I would say Ferretti was always ahead of other production Euro builders.
    They got a fame for having a couple QC issues with some other brands they owned see Bertram from around 2005 to 10, and some of the other of the smaller sub 60 feet Riva again build in around 2005 to 10.
    I know a couple of owners who have now ten year old plus Ferretti and have next to no problems with them. The Ferretti brand never had the issues Bertram and Ferretti had.

    Sunseeker have had issues over the years, I have seen 82 Yacht models which had hundreds of issues, and also I have seen quite a few 75 Predator with the dreaded dark gelcoat issue which peeled and had to go in litigation for them to fix in less then a year. Yes some models are good as the 62 / 64 Predator series, others are so and so.
    Personally I would say that Sunseeker have never reached the level Ferretti had on there boats.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    That's easy, go with a Hatteras.

    I like Feretti's, I DON'T like the design. They're a good sea boat. But, I'm 6'3 and my hair touches the salon ceiling in most all of them. Way too low on the head room. They also have the sills of death.....a sill that sticks up 1" under every door way and you bust your toes on. Also they're a good sea boat, but seems like Feretti always under sizes the rudders.

    Sunseeker builds a very good sea boat. Quality is pretty good.
  6. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    Hatteras isn’t a good comp. It is significantly more expensive and does not have the same styling and really are targeting two different groups.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah and it's a boat you buy with top quality that has minimal issues. How is the 75' Not equivalent to a Euro boat? Cruises at 26 knots, has plenty of range, a real engine room, real crew quarters, plenty of flybridge room, etc. A flat salon level without a bunch of steps, and a great sea boat. Styling looks familiar to me. You get what you pay for. You want cheap, buy a Chinese yacht.
  8. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    Yes I understand but when you compare a 75’ Hatteras to a 75’ euro boat, you are in completely different volume ranges with the Hat being significantly more volume and comparable to a larger euro built boat.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, you're comparing a builder that has EVOLVED to match the usage of motoryachts, to builders that refuse to evolve. It's like the Porsche that still has no cup holders.

    Exactly, but they're still 75' Motor Yachts with similar cruising speeds and same amount of staterooms and similar design as far as usage goes. Perhaps the Euro builders should step up to the plate and add creature comforts such as the option of having air conditioning and heat on the flybridge of a boat this size and a hard top design that allows enclosing it with strataglass or ez2cy for the climates in which they sell these boats to. Who wants to deal with removing an hours worth of cushion covers and then have no place to store them because the under seat storage has no height to it when you can open 3 strataglass panels instead. Or who wants to sit on the open flybridge of a motoryacht that's doing 27 knots all day and dealing with up to 50 knots of wind?

    Or, the Captain have to be stuck at the lower helm with much reduced visbility when there is inclement weather further reducing visibility or very uncomfortable getting rained on, on the flybridge in it?

    Why can't they raise the seating a mere 4" so you actually have usable storage under the seating for cases of bottled water and refreshments and things you actually need to enjoy a trip on the yacht, using it as a yacht? Instead of having to break every case open and having a 1000 loose bottles of water rolling around in storage areas. There's a ton of storage areas under the seats on them, but usable for what since there is no height to the storage areas.

    My question is, at what point are the Euro builders going to EVOLVE ? U.S. builders have had air conditioning on the flybridges since the late 90's. It's like the Euro designers design yachts, but have never used a yacht or done a week long trip on one!
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  10. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Competition from American builders, who offer motor yachts, like Hatteras and Viking are bigger at squared size to an equivalent European boat.
    Apart the build quality which in some respects is stronger, they are also wider by usually a meter or more at the same length.
    Apart performance and riding nos of length to beam, European builders build yachts to fit a certain size of berth, a size which was mostly dictated in the past but how South of France berths where made in the nineties. As an example an a 15 to 18 meters boat better not go over five meters in beam, or else you will have to buy an 18 to 20 meter size berth which will cost 30 to 50% more.

    Marquis, Sea Ray, Lazzara, and Cruisers have been USA builders trying to make a more European boat, not only in style but also in more similar nos to those of the old continent.
    I think Cruisers is the only doing it, and they do it up to 60 feet.
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    So what does that have to do with the things I've mentioned. Storage, air conditioning on flybridge, etc. Beam difference between the Euro boats and hatteras is .5 meter or less.
  12. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Hatteras M75 beam - 6.40 m. 22.8 disp 70,000 kg 2 x 1600hp Cat (possibly slower), fair to add sold with 2 x 23 kw gen as standard
    Ferretti 720 - 5.6 m, loa 22.3 disp 63000 kg (loaded) eng 2 x 1200hp Man 28 knots (standard gen might be 1 x 16 kw and a 5 kw)

    new upcoming Princess Y72 - 5.38 m beam, loa 21.7, 52000 kg (medium load) eng 2 x Man 1650hp 35 knots max speed est

    Now once you go over six meters in most euro marinas you have to get a 24 to 28 meter berth.
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    This is a debate that's been going on since about 1990 when European builders got serious about competing in America. Space vs. sexiness trying to pull buyers to their continent. It depends on the individual buyer, his tastes and needs. These days that line's gotten much more blurry and the differences more subtle. Now American builders are going after the European market. These days you've got a 3rd player, the Axe bow. Where will that fit in the discussion? Quality and service are much easier to debate and verify than tastes. Nobody wants their yacht to fall apart or get laid up for 3 years on a repair or not get delivered.

    Btw, I managed a couple of marinas. When the boats looking to book got bigger or wider the poles and cleats got moved. Simple (unless governments are involved). The market will dictate that.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  14. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I still view these as two different categories of yachts. The Hatteras is more comparable to a Horizon, Ocean Alexander, or some new Cheoy Lee builds. Granted, the Hatteras is definitely playing at a higher quality level but those all offer all the arguments you are making above. A buyer that’s looking at a 75’ Sunseeker isn’t looking at any of these brands. They are looking at Azimut, Princess, Ferretti, etc. Further your argument about the same number of cabins isn’t very relevant. You often see that from much smaller sizes up to 100’+ having 4 cabins.

    Ultimately, I agree that Hatteras is a step above. I just don’t see how you can say they are a competitor to Sunseeker when they have very different target markets.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No, it's not. It's the same market and same LOA. You really have to care about LOA as that is what drives most all owners when purchasing. Owners here don't care about how the beam fits into slips (provided we're not talking about catamarans). All of them you mentioned. They're all a motoryacht, all cruise at 25 knots +/-, all have 4 guest cabins, all have flybridges. They're all flybridge planing hulled motoryachts. We're not comparing to semi displacement flemings, or displacement speed outer reefs or some other category. And yes, Here a buyer of a 75' Sunseeker is also looking at a 75' Hatteras as well as a 72' Ocean Alexander as well as an Azimut and the others mentioned. But here, the buyers are looking at all of the brands mentioned and then narrowing it down as all choices are within 100s of feet of each other at FLIBS.

    I have 2 new Princess owners that had/have boats less than 3 years old. One traded the Princess on a new Hatteras. The other is looking to get out of a Princess and considering 2 boats, a 76' Sunseeker and a 75' Hatteras. The latter specifically asked me about a dozen brands to start with and had 2 questions for me. Which boat is the highest quality and which boat has the fewest amount of problems. My answer was Hatteras and Sunseeker a far 2nd.
  16. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    While it is true the perception of boat buying is always about length, those who know how the marinas work in the Med can never consider a Hatteras because of its beam to length.

    Once the Hatteras beam is over six meters, then you need a berth of 24 to 30 meters, which increases your cost not by little in certain marinas.
    Hence it is why Hatteras or similar (Cheoy Lee etc) does not have any or next to nothing motor yacht market in Europe.
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Dozens and dozens of Hatteras' have shipped to the Hatteras dealer in Italy. I start talking about why the Euro builders can't improve their designs to match the markets they're selling in and compare it to their U.S. competition, and somehow you go on and on about dockage?

    Honestly, what does that have to do with raising the seating height a mere 4" on the FB and Salon so you can actually store stuff IN the storage compartments. And, for someone that's over 6', doesn't feel like you're sitting on the floor or on seating made for children. Or giving the option of putting air conditioning/heat on the flybridge (which would also require the storage under the seats to be 4" higher). Or any other creature comforts that make yachting more enjoyable and also extend peoples usage. Or princess that makes crew mattresses in all over their yachts 70' and under......3/4 of the width of a twin bed that no adult male over 5'5 can comfortably sleep on.
  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Your statement left me wondering where exactly they shipped those boats, 'cause I'm not aware of ANY Italian Hatteras dealer.
    So, I just checked their website, and if you select "find a dealer", and then "Italy", the website points to Ekka, a Greek dealer based in Athens and with a subsidiary in Cyprus.
    And I very much doubt that anyone in Italy ever heard of them.
    Aside from Ferretti Group probably, because most of their brands (in order of appearance: Ferretti, Riva, Pershing, Custom Line - plus Pardo) are what you see if you check out the homepage of the Ekka website.

    With all due respect for Hatt, I can't imagine any Italian builder following them in the foreseeable future.
    If anything, I think it's Hatt that is trying to follow some Italian builders.
    I'm referring to the MYs, of course. SFs are very marginal, around here.
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    SNO Yachts was a Hatteras dealer for 2 decades +/-, up until a year or two ago. I used Hatteras as a comparison. Not saying that they need to follow each other. My argument is WHY they don't make their yachts more usable for what you use a yacht for.
  20. 993RSR

    993RSR Senior Member

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    Yes, you're comparing a builder that has EVOLVED to match the usage of motoryachts, to builders that refuse to evolve. It's like the Porsche that still has no cup holders.

    WHAT?? Do you have any idea how a classic 911 has appreciated?