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Builders with Ethics?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by DDD, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Truth is an absolute defense. Plus, most companies don't want to open the can of worms a slander defense can bring out, also damages can be hard to prove.
  2. DDD

    DDD New Member

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    " What makes the Q74 so attractive is what lies beneath; good, solid boat building by people who really know boats"

    It is so refreshing to find a builder go the extra mile though they may not recoup that cost on this boat I am sure they will in loyalty.

    If it is possible let us focus on the good guys.
  3. Seaclusion

    Seaclusion New Member

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    As owner # 3 of Nordhavn 50-12 (2000), I can not say enough positive things about Nordhavn. They go out of their way to ensure that everything is right. Also I am very impressed with Alaska Diesel in that they provide free classes to anyone with a Lugger engine and/or and Northern Lights genset. This was a big move for us, and we have been very happy. Nordhavn's are very solid vessels.
  4. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I find this thread to be problematic.

    There are manufacturers recommended on this thread of which I know numerous unhappy owners. Unhappy defined as too many new boat bugs, arguments over warranty, warranty items being refused, papertrail complaints leading to termination of discussions...I would never reveal the names of those manufacturers.

    As a broker, I have had feedback from thousands of clients; this is skewed because perhaps it is the unhappy clients who want to sell their boats. On the other hand, to have an owner or captain post kudos to a builder here might give a disproportionate owner approval.

    Also, I know owners would be reluctant to say bad things about their manufacturer because that's shooting themselves in the foot in numerous ways.

    An anonymous poll of satisfaction vs dissatisfaction might be interesting but then you would have to know what percentage of owners have responded, and whether they were the original owner or subsequent.

    I vote thumbs down on the whole thread.

    Judy
  5. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I agree with you Judy, the perfect match does not exist. Some owners get better service and boats just because they have a better attitude to the yard. And also a good yard has mondays, or their supplier has. So even if we would like to see happy owners of a certain boat, there will be others with less good experience of the same boat. Same as with cars and most of our manmade machines...

    So we should probably give it up before the bashing starts....
  6. N844AA

    N844AA New Member

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    It seems there are many reasons being stated in this tread why one should never say anything bad about a builder, no matter how justified. This conspiracy of silence benefits the bad builders at the cost of the consumer.

    If automobile owners were as timid as yacht owners when it comes to reporting bad service, etc, Toyota would never have been forced to recall their cars.
  7. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Completely agree with you and Judy. Ethics is not the right word to be used to qualify a brand of boat. Too many issues, variables, sentiments, agendas etc. etc
    What is done to satisfy one customer on this day due to reasons unknown, and not for another the next day is an unknown and certainly not an "ethical" issue. It may have just been a smart business decision either way.

    By the way, in regards to K1W1 comment
    "If he only posts the truth supported by facts and he has verifiable correspondence to back his statements I do not see where he would have any problems.

    What would you suggest the company in question went after him for? Telling the truth?"

    Not sure this would be a proper defense in many cases. It is more a case of WHY is a statement made. If it is made maliciously then whether it is truth or not may still incur litigation in soime countries and states. Sometimes, actually all too often, the truth in itself is not defense enough.
  8. Hattsoff

    Hattsoff New Member

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    I'll admit I've been reading this thread with interest but I agree. There are just too many variables to get a clear "temperture" on what people think of different builders. I do think satisfied people are a more accurate guage than unsatisfied people because lets face it, some folks are very unreasonable and you can't make them happy. Such as a warranty claim on a $100 part takes a bit longer due to the the part manufacturer but it's the builder who gets blasted even though they are doing all they can to fix the problem. No matter what your problem is I find that being nice and reasonable will get you much farther than being rude but it's remarkable to me how many just don't seem to understand this.
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    The title of the thread is about ethics. It's not about who makes a good boat or takes a bit long to fix a warranty item. This is why I suggested not just naming names, but telling the circumstance. Doing a good job or building a good product has nothing to do with ethics. When a boat falls apart and the company jumps up to the plate is ethics. When they can shirk their responsibility and don't is ethics. I think the industry on a whole has a pretty good reputation, so I'd expect to hear mostly good stories. But I read a post recently about Symbol, and I think there's a place here for those as well, because that was clearly a tale about ethics. Although I've seen spirited debates on YF, I really can't remember any bash fests until recently and the mods handled that pretty well.
  10. jsi

    jsi New Member

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    Having built a whole bunch of biggish boats over the last thirty years,

    I will say this:

    If you built it, you, or your yard, own it forever.

    Including all the vendor supplied parts.

    Doesn't matter if it is the first owner or the fifth.

    Comes with the territory,

    So get used to it.

    And by the way, this is a fantastically good thing. It is always amazing

    Whether up or down, to see how a boat works out over the years.

    How in the hell else would we actually know anything about boatbuilding?

    Or how to improve our game?

    Haggling out who pays for what is an entirely different matter.

    There is warranty. God spare us all from litigation.

    Then there is the sweet spot: The owner or captain calls up,

    And says "I got a little tiny and/or major problem", and you go

    Down memory lane for that boat, and all the boats you have built,

    To solve the difficulty, and you do solve it, as close to right now as you can.

    Just my $.02


    jsi
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Carolina Classic- I delivered a 2001 35' Carolina Classic from Pensacola,FL to Falmouth, MASS in summer 2006. We had a problem where the end on a throttle cable wallowed out which is a wear item. Called the factory, on a wear item that should never have been covered under warranty and the boat was out of warranty to buy the part. The factory sent a pair of throttle cables FREE. The owner of the factory will talk to you on the phone and is a great guy (forgot his name). Has since sent the buyer numerous parts free of charge no questions asked. Really over and above.

    Cabo. I was running a new 45' Cabo in Belize after delivering if from FL. The factory sent me a new fresh water pump and some other parts with just a phone call free of charge, and never once asked for me to ship them the defective parts including a westerbeke control panel w/ gauges which I think is close to $1,000.

    Searay's technical support has also been very helpful in locating the a/c relay box and other items on a 10 year old searay.

    I have had great customer service and warranty help from Hatteras.

    I have had Boston Whaler take care of repairs outside of the warranty period as well.

    I had a very bad experience with Regal on a 2003 42' with pea size blisters every inch of the bottom. Was a couple of years ago (2006) and falls into their lifetime hull warranty (2nd new regal he had bought, origional owner). The owner ended up eating 2/3 of the cost of peeling the bottom, drying it, applying 6 coats epoxy barrier coating and bottom painting. They offered to take care of it if the owner had me run the boat from Ft. Laud to St. Augustine (300 nm away) but it would've cost the owner $4,000 or so round trip between fuel and expenses to get it there.
  12. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    This is the original posters idea.


    This is another interpretation.


    If we look back at the Bertram story, there was a boat that sank, a public story and all parties are waiting for the truth to come out. Eventhough there are a lot of speculations, it has been interesting to follow.

    But I think, having a thread where anybody can say anything bad about any builder, requires to include the posters real identity.
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Real identities are easy enough to track down, but enough work to make it not worth it just to intimidate. So far this thread is up to 3 pages and I haven't heard any bashing. The Regal situation is a prime example of the value of this sort of exchange. Regal acted in an OK fashion, but it highlights a big problem within the industry. For the longest time auto manufacturers didn't honor warranty claims unless worked on by their techs. You even had to use their brand of oil and have their mechanics do the changes.
    So this thread is going as expected. It's good advertising for the builders, but with enough bite so manufacturers can learn where they need to improve.
  14. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Do you think this would work out in Radio/TV and printed media as well?
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Thank goodness for the web. It has enabled truth (and a lot of BS) to get out despite the best efforts of corporations, countries, lawyers and death squads.
  16. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    You are right, but the truth is never anonymous.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Don't we already have a thread on here where the OP has taken a good swing at the builder of his boat?

    Admittedly most of it is on his own website but never the less it is out there in the public domain for anyone with access to the web to read and take note of.
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    When the price of truth may be your life, your family or your fortune it has to be, but (as shown in China, No. Korea & Iran) even the web has limits. Think back to the whistle blowers who went up against big tobacco. WM intimidated CBS News. What chance would some cancer stricken poor man have. The web levels the playing field somewhat.
  19. Bluefin

    Bluefin New Member

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    I have an inherent faith in the goodness of people. Yeah, many times it turns out to be a misguided faith, but I would rather be that way than thinking everyone is a scum bag.


    The big problem comes in this type of economy. There are many people who would do the right thing if they could. Sometimes making a decision to do the right thing may cause your company huge harm, and it's better for your company if you stall, deny, etc.

    I had a lawyer friend tell me that when faced with bankruptcy, people will act very differently than they normally would. Understandable.

    So, boat builders who used to go the extra mile may not do so as much as in the past, even if they believe that helping the customer helps them in the long run.
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    The 'problem' doesn't 'come in this kind of economy'. The proof of one's ethics (or lack there of) does. It's easy to do the right thing if it doesn't cost you anything. I've struggled to make ends meet more times than I can count, but it's worth it to respect the person I see in the mirror each morning. Not everyone feels that way. My experience has been that the more money a person has the more he is willing to sacrifice his ethics in the face of losing it. Thankfully though I've met several exceptions to that.