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Bertram Sportfish Yachts Coming Back???

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by Capt Ralph, Nov 3, 2015.

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  1. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'm commenting not on the boat itself but on it's customer and who I believe the first ones are being sold to. Time will tell who their customer is. Lots of true "one things" get sold to entirely different customers, like tournament ski boats that go for family cruisers. A lot of center console purchasers aren't fishermen, which is why you see all the companies with deluxe models. Now, Bertram's customer may ultimately be serious fishermen. I think the 60' is going to be more for that group. I never said what the boat was, but said who their target customer appears to be. So far a lot of interest from those who use to be serious fishermen, some from those who just admired the boat. It's going to be interesting to see if they can capture younger boaters' interest. I hope it is successful and helps fill the void left by the death of Cabo. I don't think serious sports fishing persons buy center consoles, but more amateur fishermen and family types. The serious sportsfisherman has moved on up to larger boats. Now I may be wrong and I can't speak and don't try to speak to how well it might fish. It will be interesting to see what happens. So far, Bertram's new owners have done a far better job at reviving a brand than others. Ocean gone. Post gone. Cabo gone. In 26 months, they've accomplished a lot. Where the brand will go, no one can be sure. I think with their larger models they could get some very serious fishermen interested. So far, they've shown they'll listen to the consumer, their boat isn't delaminating, and it seems to be a decent quality boat overall. They also haven't given up on getting a little more speed, although I don't think they truly need to worry about it, just change their literature. It will be interesting to hear at some point how their buyers are using the boat.
  2. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Agree the 30 knot cruise is plenty in a 35. The 40 knot thing is more a truth in advertising thing, if they say they can do it then what gives? Maybe they will get there before it is all said and done.

    I recall the first 31 that had a pair of 3208TAs and pictures of it showed it hauling a$$, but in reality it was 30 or sub 30 knots. But it sure looked good and looked like it was really moving.

    That was a repower by the way.
  3. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    Another boat and oldschool too is the Caribbean 35 (old Bertram 35 mould), and has a dry weight of 8500kg (18700lb). Price... $560k... I dare say there's some "markup" on the new Bertram 35.

    I'd also have to add, you can't go too light in a boat's displacement, as the hull design and thus performance starts to suffer.

    CaptJ, a lot of the S/F seem to put the fuel tank in the aft end - a lot of space, and allows more fuel, though this should be a negative with high fuel loads in a head sea - CG and CB well aft. Sounds like the performance comes back when tanks get dry as CG and CB move forward. Cheers

    Far
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No, the fast SF like the weight as far aft as possible. Almost every single one I've run. Most of the boats that have a bow and stern fuel tank (bow being a transfer tank) run fastest if you keep transferring the fuel to keep the aft tank full. You then use a bit of trim tab to keep the bow down and this gives the stern lift and allows less wetted surface. A 25+ knot SF prefers as much weight aft as possible. Now if the fuel tank gets really low, it could effect ride a little, but on most it doesn't because the entire boat is so much lighter because of the fuel burned off that it rides more on top (more stern lift because of the less weight, then less tabs so bow rides higher too). You've got to remember, the cockpit area adds a ton of buoyancy without a lot of weight (no house) on top of it, so the fuel counteracts that buoyancy and keeps the trim aft.

    Now here's the rub, when I did engine startups for Cabo and several SF manufacturers, we always did the tests with NO trim tabs so they were consistent. Adding trim tabs usually gets you 2 more knots at cruise on all of the fast SF, it did on all of the cabo's.
  5. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    Hi Capt J... I was referring to your previous comment about heavy fuel loads ;).
    Cheers

    Far
  6. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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  7. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    A simple question in this, with all that weight aft, how do these SF ride in big head seas with short waves, where waterline length and a solid stuck to the water bow play an important role.
    You need the Vee entry of the bow to ride into the seas.
    You might not get much of that in the Atlantis but in the Med as the Adriatic (Bora) and Greece (Meltemi) this is a very common sea state.
    That is why Ferretti for example move Cog forward on the 570 because for them it is a Commandment to have a certain ride at say 18-20 knots, which with a lot of weight aft cannot be achieved.
  8. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

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    I think Capt J's anecdotal observations from the helm viewpoint may be misleading you a little Liam. Over here we do indeed frequently encounter pretty steep head sea conditions and while different builders deal with it in many ways (deadrise, COG, appendages), we all strive to design a well balanced hull for all conditions. When Capt J sees things like forward extended range tanks and how the boat's don't "like" them full, it is intended to be that way as that's not usually the normal running condition.

    Most sporties on this side of the pond are optimized for the highest speed possible in calm conditions with flatter aft sections and sharp entry. When on top, they run on the aft third of the running surface only and the sharp entry stays out of the water to minimize drag. If heavy seas are encountered usually a small amount of trim tab is sufficient to lower the bow and let it do it's "slice and dice" act and while the drag is higher with more wetted surface, it's an acceptable trade off for the ride. The expected speeds are also somewhat higher over here, 30+ knot cruise is considered a minimum and if the average size 60' convertible couldn't maintain that reasonably comfortably in 4-6' seas, they would never be able to sell one.

    Here's a couple renderings of one of our hulls that show the sharp transition from bow to flat aft sections (I hope)

    Attached Files:

  9. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    There have been many private repowers of Bertram 28 Fly bridges and Expresses with Outboards, the Bertram Mono-Hedron Deep-Vee is a very good candidate for these applications. You could really do this anywhere from 25' - to 38' on their models.

    Some have even taken a 28 Flybridge and converted it to a 28' Center Console with Outboards on brackets.

    https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=59473
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    In addition to what Bill 106 said. On a sportfish, the cockpit has a lot more buoyancy than the forward 2/3 of the vessel because it doesn't have the house and front deck and accomodations on top of the hull. So the main fuel tank is generally under the cockpit sole on a sportfish to add weight back there and get the COG correct. But if you keep the forward transfer tank full and run the main cockpit tank down the sportfish will generally ride too bow heavy. Most operators won't notice this much but an experienced captain will in ride and a loss of maybe 3-5% in speed. Having the cockpit tank full and bow tank empty and rough seas is generally not a problem as putting the trim tabs 1/2-2/3 down solves the ride issue.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Sportfishing boats and 18-20 knots don't fit in the same conversation here. Hatteras GT 70, definitely not one of the fastest and up to the custom builds, but WOT 41 knots, cruise perhaps 36 knots and a slow cruise to conserve fuel would be 24 knots but not many fishermen going to do that. Do that only to pick up range. Interestingly to us, about the exact same speeds as most Riva's in the 44-63' range, albeit with much more hp.

    And of course Center Consoles everywhere with typical WOT of 55-60 knots or above and cruises of mid 40's.
  12. YachtForums

    YachtForums Publisher/Admin

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    Stopped by the Bertram camp at FLIBS and spoke with Morgan Bertram. They are prepping a new 61' to debut at the Palm Beach show, designed by Michael Peters. The boats are being built at Lazzara's old facility, employing some of the same workforce. In addition, they are offering refit and maintenance services, plus a hurricane haul-out shelter plan.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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  14. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    And reported to have three orders on plan. Started as project 58, now 60.
  15. UYD

    UYD New Member

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    If anyone has ever worked with a design committee made up of THREE different cultures....you'd understand why I wasn't able to get BERTRAM back to the more masculine look of the true BERTRAM bloodline. With the new owner, MPYD has had much more freedom to design.
  16. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Well stated and thanks for your openness.
    Design by committee is a pain in the ass that rarely hits the mark. It takes courage to let those with skills to do their job, but many times egos get in the way.
  17. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    UYD, presuming this is you Robert...? I actually thought what you produced for Bertram was pretty good considering the direction they took previously... too Ferratti looking. Though, would you have returned to the early to mid 90's "look" for the new 61...?

    Also guys, why would Bertram return to a previous factory considering the history - surely the new team is running the show...? Cheers

    Far
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Problems haven't been the factory, but the management and operation of it. I wouldn't have a problem returning. I'd have a major problem with the same persons making all the decisions.
  19. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    I couldn't agree more, I dare say the factory itself would be pretty good. Cheers

    Far
  20. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Which Factory is being referenced?