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Bertram Sportfish Yachts Coming Back???

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by Capt Ralph, Nov 3, 2015.

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  1. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    That's the thing... even if this boat boat was a super performer how many $900K 35' sportfishers are you going to sell? It's a boutique build any way you look at it. The novelty of it being a heritage model Bertram will generate a few sales here and there and I don't know that performance, or lack of it, makes any difference really.
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It is hard to compare them to others as the 35' SF market is very small. A 39' Tiara is a huge boat compared to the 35' Bertram. I think the 35' Bertram could hit 40 knots with lighter power......yanmar, cummins etc. than the cats. It would be quieter with cummins. I have seen 2 35' Bertrams run from about a 1/4 mile away from me, they appear to me to be pretty darn dry to me when they're running. My honest guess is weight is why they can't hit their number and if you ordered the base boat without packing it with heavy options like a seakeeper and etc. it would come very close to hitting it's number. I've never been on one and never been a Bertram fan to start with, but do like this boat. You would have to compare the Bertram to identical sized boats made in the past, 35' Cabo FB and 34' Tiara FB. It fills a niche of nostalgia and a size that everyone is skipping over these days......And it is an upgrade in all aspects of the origional.....unlike the Donzi classics that are still built as the same ill handling boats they always were.

    Regardless. If someone likes the boat and they're happy with a 30 knot cruise 36 knot top end so be it. It is what it is. Quite honestly, how often could run run a 35' FB at a 35 knot cruise anyways......If you're really looking to go fast, you buy a yellowfin or seavee, prepared to get rained on, and 30 knots is 1/3 throttle.
  3. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The Cabo 35 was a 33 knot wot boat with 540hp Cummins.
    Lighter engines won't do it, the big issue is the "cab forward" design does not lend itself to speed. The center of gravity would have to go back some but with engine boxes fwd you are kind of stuck. Another way to look at it is the boat has run out of waterline length.
    IPS won't do it as you would have to jackshaft the engine to the drive and raise the cockpit height when you can't because of the low freeboard.
    The most obvious way to get 40 knots would be to go with outboards on brackets. Does the new ownership have the guts to give it a try?
  4. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I think the best comparison is the Viking 37 billfish, 34.5 knot wot at 240NM and 338NM at 25.6 knots. She's also about 10db quieter than the Bertram.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree, that is the closest comparison right now.....but still a bigger, beefier boat.
  6. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The original 31 design was so unique that it is core to its mystique. The big design point outside the improved ride for that era is a flybridge boat with a salon AND with engine boxes aft of the salon bulkhead. They were building up the brand and were not downsizing a convertible/sedan to fit a given length. It was pure and balanced for the 31. The 35 looks pure but the balance may not be quite the same given today's habit of selling creature comfort features over true performance.
    Cabo was really the only one to improve the 31 design by including half the engine in the salon with a well thought out solution. Kudos to them for that design genius. I was hoping to see the carry over to the new Bertram 35 and get a better balance and improved salon, not to mention a more spacious bridge but it is not meant to be.
  7. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    They could have done that, but they wanted the 35 to be as 31 as possible.
    This is about making an boat with a new canvas, and making it bigger (four feet) to fit better to today standards.

    It is the same as Riva did with the AquaRivas, in recreating the Aquarama etc etc
  8. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    They could have done anything with a new canvas that is the whole point.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    It is in many ways. Two differences in results though. The Aquariva, (and for that matter, Rivarama, Rivale, and Virtus) all do actually run 40 knots and all do it at under 80 decibels.
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'm going to send some plaudits and applause Bertram's way now. They haven't fallen into the Donzi Classic pit of building the same boat as before. The Bertram before the sale had issues. They've built a better boat. There are probably things they could do to hit the 40 knots the naval architect designed to but I don't know that they're advisable. I'd just suggest changing the projected speed now that they have real life numbers. The noise may not bother a Bertram buyer. I'd prefer a quieter engine.

    I'm happy to see a brand purchased and returned to the market, not fall into never never land like Cabo and Post and others. I think also they are updating more to today's market while retaining the best of the old spirit.

    Also, I've communicated with them starting with filling out a form on their website. I've gotten quick and professional responses. I've been very impressed and appreciative of them. I won't divulge the information received but I do want to divulge one comment which was that they listen and don't want to be like the previous iteration of Bertram which didn't seem to.

    They are making a serious effort toward reviving and improving a brand. When Ferretti announced they were shutting Bertram down, how many expected ever to see one again? I didn't. I'm upset over what Hatteras did with Cabo. Even with the sale of the brand, we've all seen brands sold and never heard from again.

    So, I do wish them luck. I find no fault with 36 knots, just they shouldn't have used the optimistic architect's number. I know builders who automatically reduce the naval architect's design numbers until proven. And I would want it quieter but the Bertram buyer may be fine with the loudness. But the positive is they have produced and shipped the first model and the second is underway so Bertram is alive, more alive than honestly it had been in years.
  11. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Centek has been pretty good at taming the very loud C18's exhaust note, it is not an unsolvable issue for this smaller power package.

    The 60 will represent a challenge of a bigger magnitude, speed targets will have to be hit, under 42 knots wot will be considered a true fail.

    I would do some soul searching if I were part of the new Bertram, competing against the Viking and Hatteras 60, both of which have seen many revisions and fine tuning over the years is a daunting task. Not to mention the Custom SF guys. I would spend more time on getting a specific advantage that I could market over them. Pick what really matters speed, rough sea ride quality, quality of construction, fish ability or interior comfort. And do that better than the competition and run with it. But don't get caught in the trap of trying to do all things better when you are a fledgling company.

    Personally, I would focus on rough water speed capability and quality of construction and go from there. If you are the fastest production 60, no one can take that away. Same if you are the lightest and strongest . The rest will follow.
  12. MBY

    MBY Senior Member

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    I have spoken to someone who is closely involved with Bertram many times and they are really paying attention to weight. Its definitely going to be considerably lighter than a Viking of the same size.
  13. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Considerably lighter???
    We will see, both those companies have infused large parts for quite awhile now, Bertram faces a steep learning curve to make such a large leap. There was nothing "techy"about the 35 construction to give us a hint of weight savings to come.
    Hope they are doing there home work.
  14. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Is it really that difficult to go lighter then a Viking. How much Kevlar and Carbon do they use.
    AFAIK they still Balsa resin infuse, so they are not using any of the fancy high tech PVC core from Corecell or Diab.
    I think if you want to put a bench mark for a light strong and fast sportfish you look at a custom builder like Garlington who have been in the fancy construction mode since ever, not Viking or Hatteras.
    Who yes are fast, but more then by light weight do this with shear HP nos. Viking 70 which is one of the fastest model goes out with twin (optional) 2635hp MTU.
    To put a European comparison that is something you would find on a 94 Mangusta which is no light weight sport yacht....
  15. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    I don't expect the European contingent to have the same American perspective on our SF market, it is much like the difference between our muscle car market and the lack there-of one in Europe.

    Introducing custom or semi-custom builders when discussing serial production buildings is not relevant. You only highlighted approaches which require additional material cost, additional building processes, additional labor requirements and ultimately additional builder cost. To ignore the challenge of a start-up serial production builder to ramp up there own learning curve and immediately compete with the two most established names in the business is dismissive of the issues that Bertram has to deal with right now.

    The Garlington 61 is one of the prettiest semi-custom SF around, and it has created a reputation as a great performer in rough water, it is not the lightest or the fastest. So it goes back to my original point, pick a feature that is valued by the end user that sets your product apart from the pack and commit to it 110% . That is how Bertram will carve out its own sales territory and bring the brand back. The 35 is trying to be all things to all customers in a length that does not really support this approach. If I where them, I would come out with a new model that includes a non-bulkhead lighter version with less emphasis on creature comforts but more SF features like a true SF Model, hit the 40 knot target and show everyone what they can do when they have regrouped their "focus".
  16. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    But the 35 isn't trying to be a true SF model or target that buyer. It's no what it is or intends to be. That market is already taken by Center Consoles and larger SF's.
  17. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Hard to understand what you mean by a "true" SF. But their website and marketing does not support your opinion.

    By your same logic Viking should drop the 37 Billfish, and should just walk away and let the CC crowd do their thing.

    Give up right now, throw in the towel and call it a day.
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That's what others have done in this size range so Bertram has built a boat that has appeal beyond the hard core sportfisherman who has moved on to larger boats.
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    There are others coming into this arena, I will leave it at that.

    You are trying to nuance the versatility of a Flybridge SF/Convertible in some different way when we already know it has a wide range of appeal.

    Not all hard core fisherman buy CC's and not all hard core fisherman buy Flybridge convertibles and so on and so forth......
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I don't think top speed is really why someone is looking at the 35' bertram, A 30 knot cruise is plenty in a boat that size. I've run LOTS and LOTS of small SF in the Bertram size range. There is a huge difference in ride quality between 30 and 35 knots and it isn't pleasant for more than an hour at most. A 35' sportfish is NOT a sportfish that most owners are going to do 400NM + trips on a regular basis. I've run some 35' Sportfish and expresses on 2,000NM trips, but that is not the norm. I once took a 35' Carolina Classic from Pensacola, FL to Falmouth, MASS in 14 days. But this boat would be a great boat to have at Los Suenos or Ocean Reef and take out fishing.

    Olderboater- this is a true sportfish and set up pretty darn well for a 35' sportfish. This is for the guy that wants to go inside and eat lunch in air conditioning or the kids can take a nap while fishing, or to completely get out of the rain. OR, a safe place to lock up all of your gear when in the Bahamas. Instead of carting loads and loads of fishing rods, tackle, and scuba gear back and forth from your hotel room to your center console every day. Center console people are getting tired of getting rained on, spray, and carting their stuff a mile each day when in the bahamas. How can you comment on what a true sportfish is, when you;re not a fisherman???