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Bertram Entering the Outboard Market

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by German Yachting, Oct 29, 2019.

  1. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Pascal, I don’t see a lot of Hondas in Florida or the Bahamas, nor in SE NC where we boat as well. Suzuki seems to be making a run. You get around more than me but I just don’t see a lot of Hondas. I have often wondered why Hondas don’t sell more OBs because their other products cars and small engines are very good. It appears their dealer network is small.
  2. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    What other areas?
    There are few to none from Alaska to San Fran. That is all I know.
    I do see the utility and function of the CC, I would love to own one if I were in a more year round sunny local.
  3. GhostriderIII

    GhostriderIII Senior Member

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    That's because Volvo is cheap. Cheap to buy - expensive to maintain.

    A long time ago the Moppie was equipped with twin o/b power. Bertram built 25 of them
  4. GhostriderIII

    GhostriderIII Senior Member

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    For one thing they weigh too much - and are expensive.
    For another the HP wasn't there - they were small engines that Yanmar was building in 1985 - 27 & 36hp. I've only seen them in Oz. I understand they are back on the market again
    https://www.boatingmag.com/yanmar-re-enters-diesel-outboard-motor-market/
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  5. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I’m surprised the express outboard market hasn’t grown much. I feel that would be a want of many instead of a pure CC. Might be where Bertram is heading based on the historical drawing presented in the PR.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That market is starting to grow. The new tariffs to Europe encouraged Sea Ray to add many outboard models and that includes a Sundancer 320. Others have added similar.
  7. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    We will soon see some pure diesel OB’s in the 300hp range. Hoping they are a success, be nice to have a single fuel onboard.

    They all have been chasing the military market as the Coast Guard and Navy are tired of having dual fuels onboard for their RIB’s and over the horizon small craft. Hoping that they can meet the military duty cycle and can translate that to a win on the Rec market.
  8. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Since we are discussing it, here is the latest version of the COX 300;

    COX CXO300 2020.jpg
  9. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    Didn’t notice until now that Boston Whaler came out with a 40’ Conquest.
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Interestingly, on their web site, they have specs, but do not include the weight in them. Well, it's 826 lbs. Nearly 300 pounds more than Mercury and Yamaha. It is substantially lighter than Sevens.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Conquest 405 is not a CC though. They call it their SUV. Engine choices are quad Mercury, either 300 hp, 350 hp, or 400 hp.
  12. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Yep late move from Bertram , but I guess better late then never.
    But the brand is slowly returning back and only launch its second 61 model last year.
    Having such a pulse in the market, and really being attentive even Viking was late in my book.
    CC with outboards have been growing and double digits since 2010.
    Hatteras might be next with the returning Cabo name? Watch this spot!
    Will be interesting how Contender and SeaVee and others will handle this.

    I admit though I can understand outboards and there practicality sub 40 feet twin engines nowadays versus twin diesels and stern drives etc etc, but when you go a triple, quad or more set up, that is never better then a twin diesel with shafts.
    Also I never understand how no one factors the performance HP loss in these installations.
    Even a twin shaft boat loses about 20% of power to the other prop shaft rudder and lag.
    A stern drive and an outboard even more, I think it is about 30%, and that is with twin. I think I was told an estimated that a quad loses half its HP to the props.
  13. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I was referring the larger outboard express market vs CC.
  14. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Jupiter has been doing a 41 Enclosed OB Express since 2013: https://jupitermarine.com/models/41-sb/

    The only market not touched by new OB builders is the 30 - 45' FB SF, although several OB conversions have been down on used FB SF.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I don't think any buyer cares about performance hp loss and I disagree with the statement that "is never better than a twin diesel." Talking the 39-42' range, triple or quad outboards provide significant advantages over diesel in terms of cost, performance, utilization of space, weight, and draft. Seavee tried offering their 39' in a variety of configurations and there was no interest in the diesel as it just didn't compare. Their 39' with triples reaches 57 knots and has a range of over 400 nm at cruise. With quads it reaches 66 knots. Our 39' contender with triple 300's reaches 57 knots. I had never owned an outboard boat. My father had outboard fishing boats growing up. I still don't want a CC for my personal use as ours is for crew to use. However, we have a 44' Riva and it is a bit embarrassing that our CC is faster and has more range. Doesn't matter for one moment to an end user that it's losing HP to the props. That's an engineer's thought, not a user's thought. Only jet applications or surface drives can come close to the performance.
  16. GhostriderIII

    GhostriderIII Senior Member

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    Dad and I owned walkaround boats - mostly used for fishing. The 29ft boat with twin 150's and 400gal on board nearly always topped at 42kts. It wasn't necessary to go to higher hp - even tho the boat was rated for it.
  17. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    With Bertram’s Italian ownership and distribution channels overseas, I would have thought they would have taken the $15M and developed a few MY models before they pursued the crowded CC world. Hard to get my head around a Bert CC, maybe a chance to come ou5 with a new brand for the builder? It doesn’t seem to me to have a lot of emotional pull/connection to small CC’s.

    An inside look at why a SF and MY builder enters the CC market is apparent in this article:

    https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/tech/flibs-2019-new-imo-emissions-regulations-raise-concerns
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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  19. CTdave

    CTdave Senior Member

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    I have my 50 Hatteras on Yachtworld for well under $200k with just a few tire kickers. I'm about ready to break out the Sawsall & outboard brackets and make it into a CC for someone to buy.
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Honda's are long gone as far as market share is concerned. First to the table, yet they never improved technology.
    Suzuki's are a repower motor only, virtually no OEM's use them for good reasons, they're good but not as good as Mercury or Yamaha.

    Yamaha's are very popular in the Bahamas because of servicing, but they're had their share of major issues in the last 10 years. 350HP is a troublesome motor with no proper fix. 225/250HP had mid sections that the exhaust would rot out and they'd overheat, etc. They're still one of the top 2.

    Mercury is right up there in quality with some of Yamaha's best motors. The other HP ranges are better than Yamaha. Mercury has turned into a **** good motor. A lot of OEM's are using them and not favoring Yamaha anymore.

    Frankly, you usually can't go wrong with Mercury or Yamaha, but what kind of dealer support is the big question.

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