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Bertram 630 Sportfish Sinks?

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by YachtForums, Nov 12, 2009.

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  1. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    At $2.15 million, that was working full retail of a vessel in that demographic. Having a boat that has been in stock for multiple years and been used as a demonstrator/show boat to be discounted 36% would not be uncommon especially given the current market climate.
  2. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Yes you can, seriously. I'm moving a couple of guys up right now. There are serious deals to be had. Thing I'm reminding my guys of though is that the "deals" don't continue into the cost escalation of ongoing operations.
  3. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    You owe me a keyboard....
  4. Bluefin

    Bluefin New Member

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    In today's market, do not make an offer on a boat unless you are prepared to write the check. You may be insulting some with low ball offers, but some will be happy to take a lot less. They have no reason to lower prices but so far, because that then becomes the "new" starting point, but many will go waaaay below their list.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    and no warranties implied or expressed? hehehehe
  6. Adad

    Adad New Member

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    Wowww spend over a million on a boat and you cant even step on to it. If anyone purchases one of these boats I hope they seriously consider land delivery. ;)
  7. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    ^^ goes right along with "that'll buff right out."
  8. ZIA

    ZIA New Member

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    If this Bertram incident had happened 10 years ago it may not have caused much of a ripple.

    Today the internet has become such an important influence in our daily lives that the lid is blown off of any event you can think of.

    Politics, Tiger, earthquake...... we are on our computer at once to find the details to feed our own individual appetite for information.

    A few or more years ago "most of us" were not so in tune or dependant on our computers and an event like the 63 sinking would have been read as a newspaper article and not given too much more thought as to the sinking possibilities.

    This Yacht Forums has brought up questions and answers on the subject; whether you like them or not, that collectively are a true wealth of insight on the subject.

    The times have changed dramatically for buyers and sellers the curious and the uninformed; each can easily now be the "vastly informed" and rather quickly by using the internet.

    We are really in a new age and some do not realize it yet!
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Well if the boat was insured, he would get re-imbursed one way or another and the insurance company and Bertram would be duking it out in court.
  10. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Certification

    So Henning, Cpat J, Pascal, Marmot and any other of the highly knowledgable I have missed;
    What sort of true "certification" could be created to give the average new/late model boat buyer confidence? I am looking at buying a vessel from 1991 and feel good about it, besides getting a lot of boat for my $'s, this thread has scared the bejeesuz out of me in buying ANY new high tech construct vessel. Google Delamination and see MANY brands from reputable builders. Apologise for the STOP comment I made late last night, was a bit over the top with that, but really, if this was the auto or pharmaceutical industry then the general public would certainly NOT be the "test subjects" for new product.
  11. Sportfisher

    Sportfisher New Member

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    I am NOT one of the highly knowledgeable! But the above post creates another question for me. What would be the hull surveyor's liability in such a case as this if the 'root cause' of failure existed at time of survey?
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    if you're looking at a 90s vintage boat, you're not likely to worry about some of the new high tech construction methods like vacuum bagging. Core, yes on some boats. that's where you have to do your homework and find out which brands and which models are cored below waterline. I said both brand and model because to make things confusing not all models are built the same way by one builder.

    as far as structural issues are concerned, there are a few things which are at the top of my potential deal killer list. Cored bottom below water line, fuel tanks, use of structural wood in structural parts like stringers and potentially expensive to maintain engines.

    again, since things vary from one year or model to the next, it's hard to say avoid brand X. it's not that easy.

    for instance, and as much as i am aware that i'm comparing apples to oranges here, i'll tell you that these criteria played a role when i chose an old hatteras MY vs other more recent models/brands. Solid glass hull, fiberglass fuel tanks (no worries abotu alum. rotting...), and foam encapsulated stringers where the foam plays no structural role (unlike stringers built out of structural wood and just encapsulated with glass)

    Once you've done your homework and research on a specific model, then a good independent surveyor should be able to determine the condition of the hull, especially cored portion.
  13. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    some questions about buying new boats, i would also suggest checking out location of where the boat was made, ive heard some pretty interesting story on certain countries.

    can i also say in relation to the boat getting tossed around by the sea storm, isnt there a suction that the boat and the bottom have, and would be hard to overcome? i can see the boat going down with most of the deck still attached and then getting ripped off by the water after a few weeks, but its the barge theory again... there’s evidence of one thing but there’s also evidence of other things NOT backing it up.

    far
  14. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Hi Pascal, Good advice, however my expeience with some surveyors has been less than good. One of our favourite boats was a Ocean Alex 50 Mk1. I had it extensively surveyed. The surveyor did not pick up a rusted fuel tank, one of the shafts just two bolts from coming off the coupling and other items. The engineer did not pick up on an almost dead generator or bad fuel line. By sheer luck I found these myself before the sea trial, except for the fuel.
    He had no comment when I came back at him and I avoid lawyers like a plague (long story why!). Point is, what I am after is some sort of compliance that forces new product to be properly tested before reaching the consumer. Admittedly many issues only raise their heads later, but considering the immense investment we make there should be a better way, and NO I am not keen on adding too many laws, seen that in the building industry. But here is a good example, as a builder, I lose my liscence/livelyhood in serious cases and must stand by my product for 6 years 6 days, unless it is a MAJOR problem, then 20 years is still back on me!

    Attached Files:

  15. YachtForums

    YachtForums Publisher/Admin

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  16. Adad

    Adad New Member

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    I realize this isnt over by any means. I have also known about the refusal of replacement since it was posted over on David Pascoe's website. If nothing else surveyor's business will increase and builders will be much more aware of the products they put out.
  17. alacrity

    alacrity New Member

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    the leverage that sellers and manufacturers once had over consumers is now significantly eroded because of the internet. thankfully.

    when i first leased a car over 10 years ago i read on the internet articles and other data about the business of leasing and selling of cars. i learned that for every 50 or so people that walk into a dealership, only 1 buys. i found more or less the invoice price of my car and found out what car i wanted. i walked into the dealership and i told the salesperson that i was the 1 in 50 and that he didnt even have to work for the commission. i told him that i would pay him $1,000 for 5 minutes of work (plus paperwork). he initially laughed, but i walked out 2 hours later paying $1,000 over the invoice price (and no dealership fees!). i couldnt have done it without the internet.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I would highly recommend getting yourself a very reputable hull surveyor and an engine surveyor.......(the engine manufacturers dealer is not a bad choice here).
  19. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Good question. Independent survey, and if a new boat, owners representative(s) on the build. I had an interesting discussion with the Lloyds surveyor not too long ago on this subject. I was questioning as to how a vessel that had not one thing done correctly on it had a Lloyd's Certificate on it and I learned something. Unless a Lloyd's certificate has the Maltese Cross on it, all that certificate means is that it was claimed to be built from Lloyd's approved materials, that's it. Nothing about specifications or applications or integrations. No survey or audit, nothing. Just that the materials that were being claimed are approved for a nonspecific use by Lloyds. I told him it made that product worthless and was ruining the name of Lloyd's Register. He did not disagree. "It's all in what the manufacturer want's to pay for..." bogus to me. I've noticed other classification societies are getting in on the "lessened standards" for yacht certifications as well, and each of them has their own selective way of indicating things, and what a Maltese Cross means on an LR certificate may not be the same as it means on a BV certificate....

    Make sure you get your own surveyor in.
  20. ArcanisX

    ArcanisX Senior Member

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    This is not unlike many certifications in other industries that I've had first-hand experience with. The common problem with it is the kind of built-in conflict of interest common for audit practices: the company being audited/certified is the one paying for it.
    it's easy to see what kind of draft vector this creates - few would like to pay for being "deemed unworthy". No matter what effort is put to maintain certifier/auditor's integrity, it's inherently a stress point that bends or breaks over time.

    Indeed, you're almost always beter off with your own due diligence.
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