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Audio-Video Discussion

Discussion in 'Electronics' started by MaxResolution, Feb 18, 2007.

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  1. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    Plasma Televisions

    I find it somewhat incongruous that many of the plasma televisions, on yachts, are left out in the open in what is otherwise a carefully crafted environment.
    Even at the office where the television is used mostly for video conferencing and computer generated discussion materials, the display is hidden when not in use. http://www.vutec.com/artscreen/

    As to overall sound quality. I think that it does matter to many people. Most of us just are not aware of what level of performance is available. I've "disposed" of a number of phones because everyone either sounded as if they were in an echo chamber or had one of their "jewels" clamped in a vice. IT finally put in a phone system that let's people's voices actually sound human.
    Recall being rather amused when I saw a rack of amplifiers in the equipment room with rows of vacuum tubes on them. Seemed a bit strange seeing that technology surrounded by racks of computers and other modern devices. When I asked about it I was told that the tube equipment was the solution to my complaints about the tinny sounding voices. Whatever works, I suppose.
  2. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Terrific points!

    Anything we may design could later be improved upon. I agree about 'KISS', and I see three stumbling-blocks on the road to getting there. Let's start with the first user's expectations...

    "Please keep the rack junk, and TV's out of sight!" I have no issues with those who prefer an environment devoid of all that ugly electronica. It makes no sense in a traditional living space. Lately, most of the high-end installers have been using lift mechanisms, and a huge variety of great ready-made cabinets are available. One solution-oriented line allows the TV to spin 360, making it a reasonably attractive footboard affair. So, we have two ideal viewing positions and this solves a potential rubber-necking problem. But, as an ancillary monitoring device, it may seem really weird, spun 90-, when looking through the unoccupied space... "Off means down, On means up," (or vice-versa if ceiling mount.) To get all that you just got to have some $$ Crestron toys, -yummy!

    How about simple 'pocket-doors.' -Too 'traditional'?

    "I'll spent whatever it takes to get the fully automated 'simple' stuff."
    ..."Aah, but now it sounds 'tinney'!"

    Tube amps do provide those golden 'warm-tones,' but I may challenge where this choice is made and why. I mentioned 'Levinson,' and as far as I am concerned, both he and his parts collection belong at the bottom of the sea. But that's not true in every case. It's just nonsense to assume that much better 'performance' can be wrenched out of a 'Class A' -gain-stage when a good-ole A/D; (Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Mac) can drive much more air to compete with your nominal, 28 to 34dB -background noise.

    We probably broke no fewer than three rules in resorting to those tubes, aboard a yacht. They are fat and wonderful for the lower-mids, and even better for the bass. We better have achieved the world's most 'lifelike' chello and piano, NO?, here come the mighty "Nautilus!" But, I'll bet you a free deck-wash we're talking about a 'JBL' arrangement, with nearly zero back-cabinet resonance, and smaller speakers spaced too far apart.

    And, now my point. My user's favorite choices include a very simple ($75.) colored-button remote, with macros assigned to labels: Watch TV, Watch DVD, Listen to Music, AUX, -all off. Thrown in a computer, for e'mail, etc., we need a wireless keyboard -plus- the same remote! "Crestron" comes into play the minute we expect all this and more. However, a full "ADA" suite can now do the same things, without sacrificing any audio or video qualities. I refer to a 'hybrid' environment the minute we start talking about a Xanatech controller with the little Denon desk-tops strewn all about the boat, as we see on another 'for sale' entry herein. The more odd parts, including 'line-balancing baluns,' the more likely we are to have a very angry Captain. As, the lower the assigned power per channel, the more likely a random burn-out.

    Here's what I'm selling y'all on using in your minimum-depth ceilings. I only heard them once, back in '93, while the developers were tweaking one of their first installations with Mac gear, in Bakersfield: http://www.soundadvance.com/index.htm
  3. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Hi MaxR,

    In my experience a yacht is a better AV environment than most homes. Especially if the equipment is part of the original design specifications. Normally all is built in so you don´t see anything until you ask for a TV-screen to appear. The quality of sound often follows the sophistication of the owners and you can guess already from seeing the yachts exterior or the owners cars what it will sound like. I know an owner driving a bright coloured Bentley Azure and his sun deck stereo could be used for a rock concert in Central Park, while another who is driven in a Maybach has a sound system in the main salon competing with Carnegie Hall live.

    In the past you could meet installations more like screaming PA systems from a ferry, but today I have seen and listened to systems in yachts that are beyond imagination. But luckily they are often just installed to keep the grandchildren busy while you enjoy the sounds and silence of being at sea...:)
  4. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    I've actually only worked for a few individuals who could afford to send their grandchildren off to Central Park to give a rock concert in their rag-top Bentleys, and all were major-label garmentos. Behind them, they leave a string of fine homes they actually rarely visit. Back at the architect's offices we discuss what the owner had in mind when he "SPECIFIED EASE OF USE!"

    ...So, do pardon me if I sound overly concerned with all this "child's play."
  5. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    "Quality and efficiency"

    Soon, I will have to do whatever is demanded by my bosses to meet their narrow client and market-demand standards. So I greatly appreciate this chance to explore some of your ideas and concerns before I find myself wincing at the improbable, or throwing otherwise good theory to the wind. To quantify that statement, I must recall the stupidest TV and stereo installation I ever saw. They had a full suite of Yamaha's best gear, and no way to appreciate it above a whisper, although the amazing "Pop-up TV" also happened to be the greatest 'PR' gimmick Vail Associates ever used.


    Just at the base of the first lift at Vail, one of the Sears heirs had built a (now $8.M+?) posh, castle-like condo, that spun about a semi-circular, high-ceiling central living area. At the far end of the entry vestibule (very Sears & Roebuck) was a magnificent spiral stairway around a stone chimney having a secondary hearth in the master bedroom above. Each end of this array was to accommodate a full family, with no denying the inordinate emphasis on the 'grander' stairway leading to this remarkable centerpiece which floated like a neon newel-post, offering the scantiest illusion of a privacy-barrier, when viewing the Master Headboard from atop the adjacent stairs.

    Needless to say, the owner had not even moved in before throwing the unit's remote-controller in the trash. Now, suppose this relates to any yachts?

    Sure. Wherever we see a curvilinear wall of glass, or an open-tiered spatial cascade, or any space of nearly square proportions.

    In this case, the combination meant their Great room was no more comfortable than Carlsbad Cave. The problem was clearly the 'fish-bowl-effect,' and not owning an Armani jacket, they were certainly not prepared to accept a 'make-over plan' from me. The appropriate solutions relied not merely in the hands of an interior designer, or an acoustical architect, but reforming the space by brute means of a highly unpredictable nature, relative to this or any given stylistic idiom. Such harmonic redirection would require zero mathematic analysis, until the very last stages of 'tuning'.

    Back to the earlier question, about the 'modal-response' of that long rectilinear space, how can you predict, (and interdict) the dreaded anti-nodes? In that case, the doorways themselves suggest a sufficient pressure release. In 'day-mode,' without need of any predictive math, I clearly see just a minor collision between the return wall and the free-standing bar. Add richer textured arm chairs with thicker pads, where we see the leather stools, and you are well within the sweet-spot this area needs to become.

    I go back and forth on hiding the plasma screen, but I see no problem with the glazing down either side, despite the dreadful swaggered drapes which offer just about 2/3 the ideal absorption and/or deflection required.
  6. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    The Holy Grail

    If you have not yet seen the SONY 32" Bravia series LCD TV's, you owe it to yourself to do so ASAP. Despite the high price, $3,399., this particular TV finally establishes the LCD as a real contender against the heavier Plasmas. Yes, it's brighter and MUCH sharper! It would be fair to campare this against the new (NEC) high-def.screens on the latest telephones. That technology is unique because the electronics are embedded into the actual glass. ...In this case, it's "active backlighting," whatever that means.

    In the case of the SONY Bravia, I am particularly keen on tracking this mid-size product because 32" is so eminently practical for the modest berth in the average boat. Yet, the 'going-rate' for other 32LCD's ranges from $1,080. to $1,900. Obviously there are differences, but what do these specs mean to the end user? I'm usually 50/50 on any decision to purchase the latest SONY, because they are inconsistent in the actual loss-leader/performance ratios. I'll issue a strong: "BUY" -when it comes down to $2,400. in 2008, or $1,500. in 2009.

    For all practical purposes, "1080p" is the name of the game, and this one has the inputs you are going to desire in a multi-source, (UXGA) array. But, as a basic monitor, fed with composite, S, or 'RGB', I see few advantages over their lesser, 720p, $1,800. model. Most remarkably, the new stuff continues to pull the bottom out of the pricing problem with LCD.

    Still, I would put my $1,150. on the Samsung LN-53251D, since it has 1,366x768, (true XVGA) which is great for text/computer images, and since they all still suck in terms of 'latency' and 'interpololation,' as they process standard cable and DVD.

    Attached Files:

  7. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Surround soundfield

    I won't spend more time on this Trinity, but this is where my interest began, so I'll explain what I think this drawing reveals. As you see, with the 50" TV, a trio of reference-grade in-walls, or a matched set of small speakers will give plenty of emphasis to the on-screen action. I've lifted the light, and shown the room as I see it acoustically.

    Obviously, the silly 'art-frame' would be required if there were anything but a 50" on this wall.

    Here's the ultimate testament to those invisible, low-clearance in-ceiling panels. (Red dots) In each position I see (2) 14"x22" panels, assuming they can be merged with the composite ceiling materials, having zero visibility.

    The room is bright, and not having 10' ceilings, I'm more than delighted to fill the space with smooth, down-firing 180degree radiators. Of course, we are not in Class A- audiophile land, so purists must ignore the 'EQ'. I'm 'flat' down to about 230Hz. So, the only real question is how to hide, and thus where to put the subwoofer. I only want a gentle-fill, nothing 'boomy.'

    Here's the loudspeaker I would put on the pedistals, (in walnut) assuming she won't let me do an exotic, embedded speaker array with a gentle curving walnut insert, completely surrounding the TV. ..YF pundits have already sold her on using the 'classic' 7" gaudy gold frame. -Thanks guys!

    Attached Files:

  8. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    La flotilla de'Klipschorn

    Presence-audio.com claims to be the oldest and best stereo source in Paris. This makes me green with envy. They say: "N'hésitez pas à nous consulter afin de découvrir les nombreuses possiblité qu'offrent ces merveilles d'ingéniosité."

    Southern Translation: "Y'all need some help with the awudio, or yer videoh?"

    Understandably, I don't have nearly as much faith in retail box-sellers as most people. Based on the illustrations, with the emphasis on the priciest brands, I can't help but wonder why I haven't specialized in 'built-ins' all along? Is it because we all know the performance will be comprimised, or is it just because Americans have finally come to adopt 'modern architecture' for what it actually is? -Beautiful, unadorned space. (ie; Trump SOHO Ads.)

    So, I just finished re-reading 31 years of personal notes related to the subjective, and scientific areas of musical reproduction. I have concluded that I must get a simple time-domain analyzer, if just so as to impress my prospective clients. I haven't 'tested' my 2 dB meters since 1999, because the results of simple empirical 'loudness' tests only construe about 20-40% of the data I might need, to tackle all 3 areas of finite concern...

    'Engine noise' may be the worst of all my deamons. In any event, open portals and transmission from berth-to-berth appear to define my current destiny. All the other issues are well defined. While it's not about 'big-brand' gear, I'm already spending around $70,k to outfit an imaginary 117' yacht with full bandwidth HD and touchscreen control. Can I surmise it's worth around another $25,k to assure the client that their "discrete as possible" audio presentation will match their expectations? I'm nearly positive that most current installations would not match mine!

    Ps.: If you live on the intercostal, and you wake up some night you hear "Dock of the Bay," playing right through your walls, (transparent and clear, just like Otis himself is in your living room,) -well, that's me folks!
  9. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Does this poster have a 'MUTE' -button?

    By now, you're probably wondering why I go on and on about TV and stereo.

    I'm afraid most of us race out to buy things because they are highly rated, only to be disappointed when they find some things don't match their actual needs in the least.

    My personal take in this? It's really ALL about those comments made earlier: A.) Make it bloody easy to use. B.) Don't detract from the 'actual scenery.' I assimilate the general views from the Captain of a rather large and potentially posh corporate yacht. And I would not pass over his opinions lightly. But you know as well as I that -the market- will sell these folks anything they can pass-on as 'best of class.'

    And, just diving into this, I will see far more than my fair share of really lousy 'car stereos' before I can shop for that Armani suit...

    That said, undeniably the folks at TAD have whopped the boys at Linn. And if you're looking for a real audio expert, I myself would call this bloke first, since he built the mid-drivers for their $60.k "best prototypes ever":
    http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/

    Here's his amazing little loudspeaker. And while it's no match for a three-way fourth-order Linn floor-standing pair, it's the very heart of the system I would design around, given that cost was of relatively no concern. And, I say all of that because I can guarantee the client would see 100% greater satisfaction with real custom built-ins, than using some ordinary 'carrige-trade' Stereo store, even if they sell the best products on earth!
  10. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    sometimes images don't post

    ...sorry, if I sent this twice, I'll assume you needed a complete pair. :)

    Attached Files:

  11. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Jordan JS92x... Sheer perfection?

    One of the old truisms we used to follow in the Klipsch days was that One top-quality mid-driver would always outperform Two drivers, even as they share the same load. And, while a marvel to look at, the Anthony Gallo 'balls' really don't step up to the plate once you get into the 65w -world, or go comparing anything in a system with monoblocs, or tubes.

    This product threatens to deliver something alltogether perfect for your 5.1/DTS direct soundfield. Mind you, nearly every other 'small-room' speaker diagram I've seen lately, really makes my ears hurt because the speakers are too close to match the expansion required.

    Sub-sat sets, (which is technically all we need deal with for future applications,) are problematic because the Bass is so difficult to couple with the sats. The usual answer is to use the best rated sub you can afford. One statistic suggests we must apply 50% of our total power below 200Hz. I know of no requirement for more than 400w at the bottom end. But, just to prove how 'inefficient' modern science can be, one Nevada Mfg has released a 2,400w set of 'THX-ultra' in-wall subs. ..And it costs more than the Kaliedescape suite!

    Again, the Brits rule in audio: http://www.8ballaudio.com/

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  12. AV_Pro

    AV_Pro New Member

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    Beware of Intelect Integrated Electronics. The company is run by liars and they will cheat you.
  13. YachtForums

    YachtForums Publisher/Admin

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    And beware of competing companies that slam their competition. Really AV Pro, hiding behind a screen name and posting unsubstantiated remarks is something we seriously frown upon around here. I hope your installations are better then your business conduct. One more post like this and poof... you're gone.
  14. AV_Pro

    AV_Pro New Member

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    Actually they do fine work and I do not compete with them. It is their business conduct that is in question and I am simply offering some insight to a member of this forum who expressed a desire to work for them. If I had real intent to harm I would have posted a much longer description of my feelings for the company. If the origina poster wishes to PM me for the 'substantiated' details they are more than welcome to. My apologies for walking the line...
  15. eap

    eap New Member

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    The A/V Design
    One reason is that large residential and marine electronic systems can equate to or exceed the budgets of large commercial entertainment venues and require the same level of expertise in their design and implementation. Is the boat builder or owner hiring the same contractor that fitted a local national arena or performing arts center or will it be the company who did a pretty good job on the house in the previous summer? The residential and marine systems market is flooded with vendors that may or may not be qualified to prescribe design packages that precisely meet the needs of the client. There has to be some way of understanding if a proposal from company A, which costs 50% more than the proposal from company B is justified in it’s intent, and it very well may be considering the level of expertise and capabilities of A. Who is qualified to decide this?
  16. Ferdi.p

    Ferdi.p New Member

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    AV automation on board

    Hello,

    I am new here and type here my first quote, i have no questions yet.

    Maybe there are some questions for me.

    Tell some about myself, I am working on luxury yachts wich will build in the netherlands.

    My latest project was on the Galactica (heessen), where i have commisioned the av system,

    At the moment i am enginering the av systems for new builds that will be made by the new Yachtbuilder ICON yachts.

    regards

    Ferdi
  17. MI8

    MI8 New Member

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    I'am sure it's a endless discution.For my experience the best system is the more addapted one to the request of the owner. (when he know what e want)
    is it the chicken who do the egs or the egs who do the chicken?

    analyse of the ship and the owner request will create a base to develope the project.

    cost is a key point to as a good project is a project what can be seel.
    (with margin for the seeler and satisfaction for the owner)

    and all that will be realised "in schedule" or the best project will be a desaster.

    I am not sure that a full digital system will be the best (encoding decoding etc....) depends a lot of the structure and dimention of the ship, as its the GA of the yacht who will drive the designer to create the systems and the integration.

    speaking of audio system, never forghet that the lower point of the logic chain will define the quality of ALL the system.

    thats generaly the integration of the speakers.....as designer don't want to see it and that they have to de discret.

    the room and the ceiling height are a limit to, as they create reflection with hight level of sound.

    thats mean that we need to correct the sount to match the room architectural configuration....

    the fact that the speakers are used for sound and Tv system is anover big limitation, as physicaly the place to instal the speakers for the best reponse is not the same for the two applications.... thats mean an over correction.

    Not so simple.....

    and that's just a first approche of the application of and audio system on board of a yacht...


    all my best

    MI8