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Another electronic helm system fails to work? (video)

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by johnnry, Nov 28, 2019.

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  1. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Shutting down is an option but really doesn't change the outcome in this case and he was trying to regain control, which shutting down is counter to. By shutting the engines down you relinquish all control and I can't see where you would have reduced damage. I see nothing at all in the article or the video that says to me the captain should have done something different. There was a major issue and no one hurt and I read about what if someone had been on the catamaran, they might have been killed, and I don't find that the case. They might have fallen and been hurt but the likelihood of severe injury is slim given the low speed and mild impact.

    Also, recognize that the Captain had little or no experience with this boat and had only come aboard in the past ten days. While he had 38 years experience, it sounds like he may not have had any with systems and controls like on this boat. In retrospect, I might have done one thing different. If significant work had been done on the boat and I was heading out for a sea trial to verify all was working well, I might have used tows to get me out of Dania Cutoff. I can't say for certain without knowing what work had been done or when or by whom the boat was last used or whether the Captain had ever run the boat.
  2. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Wrong estimate again, I'm afraid.
    Why do you bother relying on your personal knowledge, no matter how intimate, when nowadays computers can do the job for us, and much more accurately?

    As you can see below, Safira could have made as much as 370 yards in the canal, if she were docked in the western side of Seahaven.
    And even if she came out of the eastern side, that would still mean 290 yards or so, before reaching the exact collision point.
    [​IMG]
    For the records, the yellow line was drawn with Google Earth, and the small window shows the resulting distance.
    I added the red numbers (1 and 2) myself instead, and they show respectively the point of first contact between Safira bow and the catamaran, and the point where she eventually went aground and stopped.

    With regard to your speculations, feel free to make as many as you wish - I don't, as a point in principle.
    But imho, it would have been a weird choice indeed, to use the horn well before hitting anything, and then go silent.
    Last summer, there was a very similar incident in Venice, albeit on a much larger scale, when a cruise ship crushed against a dock and and a ferry.
    And it's very clear from several videos that they kept blasting all they got, up to the last second.
    Some elderly persons onboard were still injured (lightly, thanks God), but if there's one thing that can be said of that incident, is that anyone in town should have been deaf, to be caught off guard.
    But obviously, if and to which extent the horn avoided even worse consequences, that's anyone's guess.
    As much as it is, in this case, if anyone were onboard the catamaran.
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The turn in front of the marina is too tight to come out motoring, so she would've had to stop, bow thruster the bow around until she was facing east and then go. Sarafina did not go aground as the Dania cutoff canal is deep enough for her from dock to dock. She went into full speed reverse as the Captain gained control of her, noticed by the amount of exhaust water coming out of the port exhaust in the video and how she came to a stop. That Captain was most likely busy trying to regain control, versus blasting the horn and hanging on for the ride crashing into yachts down the entire Dania Cutoff canal. A cruise ship has many crew on the bridge and elsewhere.
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Quoting the Triton story;

    Before it was over, Safira would hit a docked catamaran, which slide aft and hit the boat behind it. Safira rebounded into the channel, and Capt. Collins ordered the anchor dropped. As the yacht slowed, it hit another docked catamaran, which broke free and drifted across the canal, coming to rest on the anchor and bow of the 50m M/Y Plan B, according to Capt. Collins’ post-incident report.

    Safira then rode up on a mud patch near the dock where the catamaran has been, listing to port.
  5. FlyingGolfer

    FlyingGolfer Member

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    2 questions:
    Would it be good to have A/B (switchable systems) at each control station?
    And locate horn control in obvious easily reachable places?
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A horn control in obvious easily reachable places, yes. A lot of times, the more control stations you have, the more issues you tend to have as theirs a lot more wiring, switches, connections, places for water to intrude the control stations and so on. I've been seeing more control failures as of lately. I'm dealing with one right now on a set of Cat C18's with sturdy's. But in that situation, Port is losing communication and losing throttle, shifting works fine. Emergency back up controls, which bypass a lot of the wiring/possible issues/stations is on the dash just to the right of the main controls on the FB and those work fine. A lot of boats, they're buried somewhere, as everyone is building yachts with form over function for a clean looking dash.
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Why all the worry about the horn? I can blow the horn a million times and it doesn't change anything and none of us know whether or not the horn was sounded. Also, we don't know from the video exactly where the first contact was made. Whether the distance was 150' or 300', we're only talking 20 to 40 seconds of time.

    I can't say whether everyone on the yacht made the most perfect choices in everything or not. I can say that it looked to me like they handled it professionally and averted what could have been far worse damage.
  8. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Suppose there was somebody below on that cat. A bunch of horn noise might have brought them up and out. Agreed that the captain was doing a lot of things...but to me sounding that horn should have been one of them.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    But we don't know if the horn was sounded or not and based on the impact, had someone been below, brining them out might have been good or bad. All speculation. The collisions were all mild. No boats sunk, none torn apart. By the time the second CAT was struck, the one in the video, you had the noise from the first one as well.

    Why is everyone assuming no horn was sounded? We have no recording of the first part of the incident.
  10. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    I don't think we are assuming anything. I was merely responding to your thought that sounding the horn wasn't very important, if I understand your opinion correctly
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    My opinion was, and is, that sounding the horn in this one incident would not have changed a thing.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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  13. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    So what? It's irrelevant whether the horn was sounded earlier or not.
    Just look at the video below from 0:40 onward, and hear up to when they kept blasting.


    Strictly based on the OP video, actually that's also my opinion.

    But again, so what? Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The horn must be used in a situation like this, period.
    You don't think it was deliberately not used, knowing for sure beforehand that it wouldn't have changed a thing, or do you?
    Either the captain didn't think to use it, or didn't know how to use it, or it was also faulty.
    I don't know what the truth is, but sure as hell is one of these three.
    It's that simple, and this is not speculation: anything else is.
  14. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Of course I agree that there are more hands on the bridge of a cruise ship, and that the Captain of this vessel also had other fishes to fry, but as Beau correctly said, using the horn should have been one of them.

    BTW, as far as can be told from the video, I very much doubt that the Captain efforts achieved any result.
    In fact, the boat suddenly stops as soon as she lists to port, i.e. as soon as she runs aground.
    And I believe that the water you are referring to is sprayed around by a Magnus stabilizer which is spinning in the attempt to correct the listing, though I see no reason why stabs were turned on in a canal.
    Anyhow, NOW we are indeed speculating, and this is an irrelevant detail anyhow vs. the use of the horn (or lack of).
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The Triton article, with the interview with the Captain has more info. It states that they dropped the anchor and that's what brings the vessel to a hault and sling shots it backwards. Which if you look at the video carefully after it hits and pushes the catamaran, you can see a HUGE indentation on the port bow of Safira after she slides backwards a little bit, where I'm guessing the chain crushed in, once the anchor hooked and capstan locked down.

    https://www.**************/2019/11/malfunction-sends-yacht-off-course/
  16. FlyingGolfer

    FlyingGolfer Member

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    I am wondering if the problem might have been a mechanical problem rather than an electronic one. On planes, we sometimes fight the urge to only consider the computers.
  17. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Exactly. someone could have "butt checked" single lever controls? Who knows until the report is in....
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Report??
    This will disappear faster than that Westport mess up.
  19. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    We do?
  20. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    This incident on Safira isn't an isolated failure of Schottel's SRP / Rudder Propeller Azipod Drives on yachts. A 42 meter Royal Denship named "Unforgettable" has been bouncing off of docks and seawalls around the world for some time now. Plenty of articles and videos out there of this yachts propulsion equipment failing during crucial times. This photo is Unforgettable losing azipod control in the entrance channel at Albany Marina in Grand Bahama in 2015. In 2009 she went in uncontrollable mode in the inner marina basin at Lyford Cay and finally wound up on the rocks in the main entrance channel. The video of this incident is hard to watch where the Captain is struggling for control and the damage being done to nearby vessels and then the final indignity of being up on the Cocina coral entrance channel shelf. She sat in Bradford Marine for over a year and a half while Schottel wrangled over the fix and refused investigative service making the vessel all but unsellable in the marketplace. Once the lawsuits settled , Schottel had come aboard and installed two new units in the vessel with new harness's and control systems Problems then stopped.



    UNFORGETTABLE-captainchrisberg.jpg