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Air-Electric Drive System

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by TRY, Oct 23, 2006.

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  1. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    2 options here

    Dear K1W1,

    1. Only air-power: you're right, limited range. But an average day cruising with a little to medium size boat (one has to start somewhere, no?) involves 3 hours motoring on average.
    At cruising speed this means some 250-300 liters of air at 300 bars, with 2 (small) engines.
    At night you re-plenish the air-tanks with the shore-power and the built in compressor.

    2. Dual energy: air + any-fuel.
    Thermo-dynamic cycle was expained some replies ago, but in short it goes like this: air intake > compression with the built-in compression pistons (lose some 30% power) > external combustion with any-fuel (at temps lower than to generate NOx) > expansion of the heated + compressed air > exhaust.

    This allows for a very important range with small air-tanks and small any-fuel tanks (consumption approx 0.8L/HR).

    Perhaps "seeing is believing"!
    You're more than welcome.
  2. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Where can this actually be seen operating?
  3. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Where?

    Engines at the development factory: now
    In car application: at the development factory, now
    Marine installation: South of France: mid next year
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Will the development centre show these things to anyone who is interested and fronts up there?
  5. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Sorry, no

    We have no guided tour service.
    Potential (and selected) licensees and selected press may visit upon invitation.
    General public can visit the showroom however, where cars, genset, engine cutaways, chassis, etc are displayed, during normal business hours.
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Are any of the models shown in the display centre able to be seen operating?

    What are the normal business hours of the centre?
  7. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Of course

    The genset runs perfectly with a string of lamps for demo-purposes.
    A demo car is available.
    But general public can just visit, look around, take pictures, etc.
    Like in a normal car show-room, right?
    Further, did you ever try to visit GM's or Daimler's R&D department?
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    There must be a lot of lamps for 10 kW.

    I have not been to GM or Daimlers R & D Depts but have been lucky enough to visit MTU and CATERPILLAR R & D Depts over the course of my career.
  9. TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    I regret that I couldn't visit MDI due to lack of time in Cannes. :(

    ok, will try somewhere in May.

    Anyone else ?

    It's quite well explained on i-net site how to get there... www.mdi.lu


    rgds,

    Andrei
  10. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    A bit confused

    Andrei, I'm a bit confused; I expected your reply by email.

    Well, since you're going for a "Yachtforums-visit" please note that apart from the endless long weekends in France during the whole of May, we're also traveling quite a lot.
    If you would like to see something more than the showroom, please give me notice, asap.
    Looking forward to meeting you all!
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    What is a "Yacht Forums Visit"?

    Is the offer to see more than the showroom open to anyone interested or just a select few?
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "It's quite well explained on i-net site how to get there... www.mdi.lu"

    Can't find much there that explains anything. There are several other of their sites that use graphics from a couple of the CAES (compressed air energy storage) sites but that is kind of like comparing apples to hydroponic lemons.

    Their use of the CAES projects as proof of the air car's viability has certainly raised my already very high level of skepticism. CAES works because they use less expensive "off peak" power from the grid to compress air for storage in very large natural or man made underground caverns. That air is then used as combustion air in a large gas turbine with several heat recovery features to enhance its efficiency, and make electricity for sale when the price reaches a sufficiently high level. This is much the same economic model used to justify the peaking gas turbines installed in some areas of the country where natural gas is often available for reduced prices.

    The CAES folks often use the 75 percent efficiency number while conveniently ignoring the fact that the cost and efficiency of the compressor side of the plant is not included in the equation. Why the aircar folks decided to use someone else's graphics to provide irrelevant, if not outright misleading, information while choosing to keep their own developments behind a smokescreen starts a lot of red flags waving.

    There is nothing wrong or new with an air powered car, it was done a long time ago and any new claim of high efficiency smells of long dead fish. Clean and green, yes (at least where the vehicle is physically located) efficient? Prove it with independent testing by the SAE like every other engine maker. Hiding the details while trying to snag investors sounds like another magic carburetor deal to me.
  13. TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    Well, it's already a different topic.
    If You "can't find" or if You "don't know" smth, it doesn't mean, that certain things do not exist, :D

    Here is how to get there:

    rgds,

    Andrei

    Attached Files:

  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Marmot- You are not the first poster in this thread to cast doubt on these too good to be true claims that continue to pour forth without any independently verifiable substantiation.

    You will probably not get any sort of answer from the promoter or will be discounted as another prophet of doom.

    I would be interested to go along and see these things for my self, but as you can see from early posts I would only be allowed to see a box and a few light bulbs while it appears that some of the posters here are on another level and will be allowed to see "something more than the showroom".

    The original posters continued refusal to answer a number of my and other technically orientated posters and not infrequent outbursts trying to defer criticism and justify without substance this too good to be true technology just further leads me to believe that anyone could probably see the same or better smoke and mirrors (they would after all be real not imaginary)in many discos without the need to travel to an industrial estate in Nice.
  15. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "Well, it's already a different topic."

    I think not. The site referenced has no link or content which describes to the technically literate, or anyone for that matter, how this machine is going to advance transportation technology or increase efficiency of anything. It has no content.

    This project has been around for how long now, 10 years or more? So why the secrecy and anger when people ask questions other than "how do I buy in?"

    What do you expect people to think when a company comes along and makes claims of 75 or 76 percent efficiency and promises even higher - approaching perpetual motion - and when questioned, the local spokesperson can only get mad and try to squelch the thread?

    "If You "can't find" or if You "don't know" smth, it doesn't mean, that certain things do not exist"

    As I wrote, there are several sites associated with MDI but the only technical information is "borrowed" from applications so far removed from the aircar and its motor that the only commonality is air.

    I don't need a map of Nice, I can read an address. What I believe many of us here would like is a nice drawing of the engine, a dynomometer report, a heat balance ... you know, the sort of things that real engine manufacturers produce to show how well their products perform. So far all we have seen is other people's work, a picture of a prototype block of metal with a belt, and two gear wheels slowly turning.

    Just because I can't find "it" certainly doesn't mean "it" doesn't exist, but, if "it" is still so well hidden after all these years of promotion I suspect there are good reasons for hiding "it."

    If you came to this forum to promote a technical advance you had better be ready and able to support every claim and have the patience to explain it to an audience with some degree of technical literacy, or none at all. Obfuscation and anger when challenged is not a good indicator of having a product that can stand on its own merits.
  16. The Reverend

    The Reverend New Member

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    Half Baked

    Try
    I'm not interested where licences have been sold or where the 'factory' is.
    All I want is some sensible pictures and/or numbers.

    If nothing is forthcoming I think this discussion would be more suitable for here:-

    http://www.halfbakery.com/category/Car
    :)

    Rev
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I would like to say that going by the fact that there has been no response to the last series of serious question that we can only assume that the originator of this post and the outrageous claims it contains has gone to ground(maybe underground)

    Maybe he should TRY ( no pun intended) to answer a few of the questions, if he can't himself because of his self professed lack of engineering skills than surely as such a forceful promoter of this product the engineers at the very company he has gone to bat for would be only too pleased to help out their colleague in need of support.

    That is of course if the operation really is more than a disco without the music.
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I am headed over that way next month and will stop by their showroom to see what they have on offer. I don't have great expectations as far as technical enlightenment is concerned.

    Your take on their absence is probably very accurate. Their silence speaks far louder and more accurately than anything they have posted to date.
  19. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Well, well,well!

    Reverend, Marmot, K1W1,
    You're more than welcome, only remeber that May in Europe (especially in France) is THE month of long weekends-and-no-work.
    Besides, as I confirmed we'll be traveling to people that DO believe and ARE interested.
    For all engineers you are, you react strangely; since 15 years or more all talk about fuel cells, about the hydrogen revolution.
    Everybody agrees, believes and claims to understand, without much visible results on the roads or on the water in any of the continents, notwithstanding the billions (mostly tax payers' money) spent.
    It is of course easier to disbelieve a small unit than to challenge major multinationals with questions such as in last replies, right?

    From the beginning I did not request your guys to understand, I was simply posting (what I thought to be) an interesting development.

    Cheers (as K1W1 says)! :)
  20. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "It is of course easier to disbelieve a small unit than to challenge major multinationals with questions such as in last replies, right?"

    I am not trying to "disbelieve" anything. You have not given us a single piece of information to use to form any kind of opinion or analysis. The only information on any of your multiple websites is graphics produced by another industry to describe how their CAES site operates. As I wrote previously, the only thing that application has in common with yours is air.

    The single piece of data you supplied, your claim of 75 percent efficiency, is based only on a single element of the system. It is misleading to those who don't know any better and I question why you would do that rather than provide information the same way all other legitimate firms do. I can think of only one reason you refuse to provide engineering data.

    The efficiency of a boiler on a steamship is in the high 90s. That doesn't mean that the plant is highly efficient. It doesn't mean that a small steam engine is more efficient than a small diesel or worth using on a small boat. Using that figure out of context to promote a product can only lead to the skepticism you have received here.

    It only reinforces my skepticism when you reply to the last few posts with another evasive non-response to the questions raised. If you or your engineers can't answer the legitimate questions raised here then what are we to believe other than this is another ponzi scheme of some sort. From my point of view, it looks like an interesting engineering project hijacked by a bunch of, what's a nice way to put it? ... less than completely candid marketing types.

    By the way, what did your Spanish representative do to get tossed out?