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Air-Electric Drive System

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by TRY, Oct 23, 2006.

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  1. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    further development

    Hi all of you behind my screen!
    Many thanks for the 3500+ views!!!

    I'll keep on posting the latest events and developments.
    Since fuel (any fuel) gets rare and expensive, if not now, in near future; our air-engine is bound to become of interest!

    Latest development towards industrialisation is our 12 KW - flat twin at barely 15 KGS.
    The generator set developed from there will not exceed 25 KGS for 10 KVA.
    Anyone better than this gets a bottle of bubbles (to collect in South of France!).
    Consumption in bi-energy mode will not exceed 1 liter (yes, ONE liter) per hour of any fuel fossil of bio!

    Test bench in august, proto in sept-oct; that's the plan.
  2. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    pushing the envelope a bit further yet!

    Hi all, at 3800+ here's some more news.
    Rather a different development but alternative fuel altogether: H²!

    Problem with H² is storage and transport, right?
    We (that is again, highly specialized engineers + myself as a promoter-investor) have devloped a high-density storage tank for gazeous H².
    Double the volume as in liquid format, thus less dangerous!
    No more transport, piping, temp-restrictions as with the liquid H² since we keep it gazeous!

    Ciao for now.
  3. The Reverend

    The Reverend New Member

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    Try, Are you going to give us some proper details this time or are you going to keep drip feeding us with tidbits of irrelevant info? I assume that most people that read this forum are either techie types or are interested in tech stuff and therefore would rather discuss the technical merits of you latest idea rather than be drawn into your latest ‘promoter investor ‘ scheme
  4. First Pericles

    First Pericles New Member

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    Has anyone asked about the size and weight of the 300 BAR pressure vessels. As a comparison, batteries for electric boats are considered the drawback because of the weight of the batteries. However, with the system being discussed here, my understanding is that installed on a boat, a mains electrical powered air compressor is used to pack away an enormous quantity of air, which is then released through the compressor to drive the electric motor that now acts as a generator to produce electricity to power electric engines to propel a boat. The weight and size of the 300 BAR pressure vessels must be really really huge in order to provide decent range.

    Then there is the racket whilst the compressor is filling the air tanks and doesn't the air become heated whilst being compressed? Shouldn't it be cooled before being stored in the pressure vessels?

    These compressed air accumulators, for that is what they are, bring to mind fireless steam locomotives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireless_locomotive and hydraulic accumulators http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/h/hydraulic_power_in_london/index.shtml

    I could be getting this all wrong, but it seems a cumbersome method of propelling a boat or a car. Why not cut out the electric motors and use the compressed air to drive the props directly with small turbines.

    In fact, injecting liquid Hydrogen into the turbine would create a useful and simple jet engine that does not need a compressor bladed inlet and which, produces only steam at the exhaust. Instead of heading for the conventional fuel barge, such a boat would connect up to the shore based compressed air depot, and load up with air and liquid hydrogen, for a spot of boating.

    What is the calorific value of liquid hydrogen?

    First Pericles
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I found a CV for Liquid Hydrogen showing a value of 150kJ/g or 48.5 kwh/kg.

    I would suggest you take the time to read this whole post. It seems that the original poster is just intent on blowing hs own trumpet and is either unable or incapable of answering any really technical questions of which there have been a good number posted.
  6. First Pericles

    First Pericles New Member

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    K1W1

    That was the impression I had, having read all 7 pages. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Nigel Calder explained that very well in the current issue of PBO, Hybrid Marine Power Part 2, discussing inefficiencies in Diesel Electrics.

    First Pericles
  7. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    As my Father used to say- First Impressions are lasting impressions.

    Welcome to Yacht Forums by the way.

    Interesting choice of handle you have there- What's behind it Shakespeare or further back in the annals of time?
  8. First Pericles

    First Pericles New Member

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    K1W1,

    Thanks for the welcome. It's just a play on the name my grandmother gave me. My parents decided on Clive Martin, but my grandmother decided she preferred Perry and it stuck. On other marine forums, I post as Pericles, but Carl pointed out that on YF, Pericles is in Atlanta. As I'm older than he is, First Pericles suggested itself.:) :)

    Pericles of Athens founded the Athenian navy and was a bit of a lad with Aspasia of Miletus. What can I say? A admirable role model. BTW, are you an NZer? I grew up in Wellington 1949-53. Family went out on Shaw Savil Tamaroa and returned on P & O Strathaird, a steam turbine electric! http://www.ozhoo.net.au/~strathsisters/strathaird/index.htm

    Regards,

    First Pericles
  9. buildboats

    buildboats New Member

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    I'm not conservative like these desk jockeys... I get your idea and seems India TATA group also gets it. I have a hydrofoil assisted catamaran I have designed and have/am building. I've looked at diesel electric hybrids and think there lots of short falls. I think this air motor is a fantastic idea and would like be part of the break through. How can I help... I don't have 3 smoke stacks coming out of my shop, but I can build a really attractive, light, fast, effiecent, catamaran, very cheap.
  10. The Reverend

    The Reverend New Member

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    As someone that is neither a conservative or a desk jockey (all though as my career progresses I'm starting to become one!)
    I don't get it!
    How can compressed air be anything but a (poor) method of storing energy?
    For example many yachts and ships use compressed air to start their engines using similar principles , this air is stored at high pressure in very heavy large vessels this energy is only able to turn the engines over for a minute or so (there are regs on the number of starts they should be capable of).
    Meanwhile the main fuel in liquid form is easily stored in thin walled tanks and the equivalent volume is able to power the vessel for many hours.
    Please explain.
  11. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    Let's close this thread!

    Carl, Please close this discussion as it apparently leads nowhere.
    It was perhaps a mistake to discuss this kind of philosophical technology.
    Thanks to all who understood and appreciated.
    Sorry for the others.
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Why do you want it closed there Try? Is this wondrous technology not as wondrous as you are trying to make everyone believe?

    I seem to recall reading earlier on here how you were going to amaze and thrill all the non believers with this incredible technology that seemed too good to be true.

    I also noticed a while back that you ignored any half technical questions that were posted about your claims.

    The question posted by YF Member The Reverend is a valid one as were some that he posted earlier that were unanswered.
  13. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I don't think closing the tread is an applicable solution. The subject was brought up and lots of discussions have occured. You can't just wipe that past out, or rewrite it.

    You might suggest to the new new poster that he go back over the material more throughly, and then bring up his doubts after that.
  14. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    The Discovery Channel recently aired a show called "Future Cars" that examined several emerging technologies including, hybrids, fuel cells, solar and... an "air" engine developed in France. They interviewed the inventor. I only caught the last couple of minutes, but they have a working, proof of concept prototype.

    I don't think it would be appropriate to close this thread, but hopefully we understand the ramifications of making announcements without having the data available to substantiate claims.
  15. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    OK to continue

    Hi,

    OK, you all have a point, I cannot just close and stop.
    At this stage, and of i nterest for marine-applications we test-run a 12 KVA genset, either on air only; whereby compressed air can easily be produced from power-overproduction by other onboard equipment.
    Second option, listen and read carefully will be via naturally aspired air, compressed by the engine's compressor pistons (opposite the working pistons and on the same rod), then heated by an external burner (compare this to a gas-boiler) using ANY form of fuel at a rate of 0.3-0.4 liters per hour, and fed into the expansion chamber to drive the engine.
    A major yachting magazine recently sent his editor to survey and ask the appropriate questions to the inventor.
    An article may be expected around March-April.
    Maybe this will explain better than I do.

    Licences (build and market) for the marine applications of the genset range will be negociated in tune with the major yachting centres: USA-Carib / Med / Australasia.

    Important for onboard use of this technology is that no exhaust is needed (we only exhaust air) and that no further marinisation is required (we have no cooling or other sensitive ancillaries).
    The 12 KVA is a drop in box of 65 kgs - 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 metres approx.

    If questions remain, and from former reactions I guess so, please put them in simple terms, I am NOT an engineer.
  16. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    This just came across my desk, India's largest auto manufacturer, Tata Motors, is going into production with an air-powered car using a (you guessed it!) French-developed air-engine... and it's coming stateside.

    Popular Mechanics article...
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series=19

    The U.S. Venture: Zero Pollution Motors (ZPM)...
    http://zeropollutionmotors.us/?page_id=45

    The Air-Engine Company: Motor Development International (MDI)...
    http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=accueil
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Carl- Are you signed up to buy one yet?
  18. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    You might view this Tata Motor announcement with some scepticism. I believe this same Indian company announced the same about the Revetec engine. They appear ready to grasp and develop any new tech that might possible fullfill both their low price mass market and that of China. Whether it comes to fruition is another question??

    Of course never underestimate the inventiveness of the India culture.

    ...cross reference

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/417-revolutionary-engine-debuts-miami-show-2.html?
  19. TRY

    TRY Senior Member

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    From the inside

    Some elements in the last messages need some slight corrections.

    Thanks Carl, for the continuous interest, otherwise you wouldn't have noticed the Tata deal, which I initiated.
    At this stage nobody can buy the car!
    We're not selling cars but licences to build and till today no such licence was signed in the USA. Patience therefore.

    It shoudl be clear by now that applications in our beloved industry are only a short stroke away.
    A 12 KVA genset is ready, there again, no sales but licences.
    Bigger engines, hence gensets, are under development.

    Indeed, as mentioned in some of the articles linked by Carl, we think to achieve a 1000 mile range with a small tank of any fuel, once the modified engine-cycle is fully operational:
    ambient-air > compress by engine (loss of power 30%) > heat with external burner at 900°C (no NOx - any fuel - less than 0.8L/hr) > expand > turn engine > repeat cycle.
    This + the bigger engine will allow a medium-sized yacht to circumnavigate on a single tank of any fuel!
    QED.

    No reply to the sceptics, Tata will build and sell compressed-air driven cars, only in India though!
  20. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    TRY- It seems like you are intent on blowing your own trumpet all the way here.

    I treat your latest statement as I have treated most of what you have written as being just a load of hot air!

    If as you and the website authors will have us believe this engine can produce it's power through a bit of jiggery pokey and only use .8 Lt of fuel per hour of any fuel.

    How do you compensate for the difference in calorific values between the different fuels on the market?

    Will the trunk of the car be able to hold enough Coal/Wood/HFO to complete a 1000 mile journey?

    You might do well to read the website yourself. There are claims there that the cars will develop 75 hp and do 96 mph with a economy of 100 mpg.Given your often repeated statement about consumption the math just doesn't add up and it isn't the only thing.

    96 ( The quoted speed) divided by .8( the supposed consumption per hour)= 120 x 3.786 ( A US Gal in Litres) = 454.32 mpg ( the supposed economy of this vehicle worked out mathematically with the figures published online)

    Quite a difference already, I can't wait to see the reality if it ever gets that far.

    TATA have been down this road before as stated above, I will refrain from comment on the US Investment options at this point as I am still waiting to get an answer to my carefully worded application.