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Age barriers??

Discussion in 'Yacht Crews' started by Argonaught, Jan 4, 2008.

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  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    ” … a person entering this field should go to this school for about 150 days and pay several thousand dollars for the privlige of what …?”

    Since the original poster has already invested considerable time and effort in training, has acquired the certification required for international service aboard a commercial vessel, and is seeking a berth as a senior officer I think he has already answered your question. If you want to work for big bucks as an officer onboard a commercial vessel in international service you have a few hoops to jump through. If you can’t or won’t then the system has worked, it has filtered out those we can’t afford in this business any more.

    “You are right in that the "paper" knowledge is about to kill the real world knowledge.”

    No, it adds value to real world knowledge. It is one of the requirements to hold a license and utilize that knowledge in the industry. If you want to carry passengers for hire or sell your skills and call yourself a professional you will have to keep up the paperwork like every other licensed professional. The “good old days” are gone and they aren’t coming back.

    “I will say though that they are regulating and licensing old and young out of the trade. Just too many papers required these days and they cost too much in money and time to get to be worth the trouble. I think I'm getting out at my next renewal. That's a bit of experience leaving the trade”.

    What are “too many papers?” How many do you personally need to renew? If you only have a 100 ton ticket, no STCW, and only work inland and near coastal waters in small boats the only paper you need to get is a TWIC. If that describes your position, all you need do is to spend $105 on a TWIC. No one is regulating or licensing small boat operators out of “the trade.” That doesn’t seem like enough of a burden to drive an old pro out of the “trade.” That “trade” is not what we are talking about anyway and it is not what the original poster is looking to get into. All my comments are about commercial yachting which is an international business that falls under a much more complex regulatory regime than U.S. inland or near coastal voyages on small boats.

    “… years is worth nothing since I have not been renewing my papers this side of the millenium.”

    The point is that if we make the choice to NOT take professional advancement courses, license upgrade training, and participate in the system that has evolved to increase marine safety and protect passengers and the environment then that is what happens. There are few professions where recurrent training and professional growth is not part of the process.
  2. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    My only problem is that I have not been working as a captain for a 12 month period during the last five years. I have just had fun with boats...:)
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "I have just had fun with boats... "

    Well, if you are lucky enough to be able to choose, that is at the top of my list. We should all have such results from our problems. :cool:
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    The proof of it all comes down to this. Are the positions getting filled or is one person doing the job of two. Are you ending up with untrained and inexperienced crew that hold all sorts of certifications. I keep reading about people looking for work in this industry boasting that they have or are about to complete their STCW, but have basically never set foot on a boat. As for us guys with these little coastal licenses that aren't worth much, in the last 2 years I've kept (4) 100 ft. plus yachts from running aground, more than a dozen in my career. Some of the big guys aren't so great about reading coastal waters, but at least they listen to their radios. Don't be too quick to knock the little guys. They run hundreds of hours each year in the shallows, in close quarters, in storms. Most of them barely earn a living though and can't really afford another $105 or another day off to go to the CG. They will give up their time to come help you though when you need. We go out when the oil spills or the planes crash or the megayachts sink.
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    “The proof of it all comes down to this.”

    Proof of ?

    “ Are the positions getting filled or is one person doing the job of two.”

    Large yachts carry a little piece of paper called a Minimum Safe Manning Certificate, it determines the number of crewmembers and their level of certification. Sometimes one person does indeed do the job of two such as when a deckhand holds an engineering certificate of some sort. Most crews are larger than the minimum anyway and most crews multitask.

    “Are you ending up with untrained and inexperienced crew that hold all sorts of certifications.”

    That is the problem with yacht limited certificates. They don’t require much sea time and rapid promotion often leads to unqualified people working above their experience and qualifications.

    “ I keep reading about people looking for work in this industry boasting that they have or are about to complete their STCW, but have basically never set foot on a boat”

    H’mmmmm Let me try and explain it to you cap …it’s not a boast. It says that they know what the minimum training requirement is for being able to work on a large yacht and have made the effort to obtain the training. STCW is an IMO Convention created to establish minimum levels of training for seafarers. There is a group of courses referred to as Basic Safety Training or BST which is required of crewmembers working on a vessel in international service. It’s primary purpose is to provide people who may “have never set foot on a boat” with a minimum level of training that might save their lives, show them how to fight fires, and help them to understand some of the risks of seafaring and how to deal with them. I recommend you look up STCW and see what it is all about.

    “Don't be too quick to knock the little guys.”

    Looking back over the posts I don’t see anything knocking the “little guys.” I just pointed out that there are no increased training requirements or regulatory issues that effect U.S. domestic inland or near coastal operators of small vessels.


    "Most of them barely earn a living though and can't really afford another $105 or another day off to go to the CG."

    Keep up the good work but don’t forget to get your TWIC before next April or you will be pleasure boating. And don’t go to the CG for a TWIC or you will waste a big part of that day. Fill out the enrollment form online and make an appointment at your nearest TWIC facility.
  6. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Believe me, a trip to Staten Island takes no less time than a trip to the CG in Manhattan, and everything taught in the STCW I learned through OJT (except for the wine class). Unfortunately, too many consider that experience and the Minimun Safe Manning Certificate as the recommended level of staffing.
    I read as part of a thread here recently about a charter yacht that was lost to a laundry room fire. It was cited that the captain was overworked and tired because he didn't have enough crew, the crew he had lacked experience and the vessel was maintained to minimum standards by investor owners. No fault was found though because it was noted that this is the situation throughout the industry at this time.
    I'm not against licensing. I'm not against security. I'm certainly not against education. I just think that the process needs to be streamlined and more credit be given to experience. The original poster to this thread is over the hill in this business...He should be sought out and begged to bring his experience on board even if he doesn't know how to make a perfect martini.
  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "... and everything taught in the STCW I learned through OJT (except for the wine class)."

    One of the forum rules is to "be polite" so I will do just that and let your statement speak for itself. By the way, there is no wine class required by the STCW convention.

    "Unfortunately, too many consider that experience and the Minimun Safe Manning Certificate as the recommended level of staffing."

    BST is not experience, it is training. The safe manning level is not recommended, it is mandatory, and for all practical purposes, nearly every boat has a crew size 2 to 6 times the minimum manning level.

    "No fault was found though because it was noted that this is the situation throughout the industry at this time."

    I strongly suggest you download and read the MAIB report on the loss of the Lady Candida. In my humble opinion, your understanding of the loss and the circumstances leading to it and the board's conclusions may be very wide of the mark.

    "even if he doesn't know how to make a perfect martini."

    Again, I will let that comment speak for itself as well.

    Thank you for your contribution though. I must commend you on your excellent illustration of several of the reasons why the IMO was compelled to create STCW and ISM.
  8. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    I spent an hour filling out the form because the TSA website was slower than molasses on a winter morning (I can only surmise because I haven't seen a cold morning in 12 years :D )
    So I made and appointment and then followed a guy in the door who hadn't made one. I then waited and hour while the TSA subcontractor filled out the form for the guy! Hopefully the appointments will work out better for others.
  9. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    In a perfect world this would be taken into consideration, but imagine the logistical nightmare if every mariner had to be individually and objectively evaluated. Heck, there is something like a 16 week backlog at the Miami Regional Examination Center just to assess whether or not mariners meet the standardized requirements for licensing.
    When I was a kid in Canada, I know for a fact that the Canadian Coast Guard used to offer limited licenses based on objective assesment of qualifications. For example, they would give a regionally restricted license to a fisherman who had been fishing the same waters his whole life, but couldn't give 2 *@&#'s about what color light a submarine shows when on the surface, or which side the red buoy is on when approaching from sea in Africa. This was very logical and noble, but I would bet that it has gone by the wayside there too.


    BTW- what boater doesn't learn about wine OTJ?? I could operate a corkscrew when I was 12 and driving the boat for my folks because they were having too much wine.
  10. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    Since you've got your danders up, there seems to be some misinterpretation. Take a deep breath, and a step back...

    NYCAP seems to be saying that, in too many cases "training and certification" is substituted for "experience" because experience carries a higher price tag. He's right, objectively and subjectively.

    NYCAP also seems to be saying that, in too many cases the "mandatory minimum" is substituted for "recommended level" (or adequate staffing) because the bare minimum seems to be a cost advantage to investor-owners. He's also right about that, objectively and subjectively.

    I'm all for training and certification, but when people point to "mandatory minimum" training or "mandatory minimum" certification in lieu of experience or hands-on training to determine sufficiency or proficiency or ability, it scares the living daylights out some of us - as it should you, as a professional.
  11. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "I'm all for training and certification, but when people point to "mandatory minimum" training or "mandatory minimum" certification in lieu of experience or hands-on training to determine sufficiency or proficiency or ability, it scares the living daylights out some of us - as it should you, as a professional. "

    I believe if you read my posts in this thread and others you will find that I am among the most vocal of critics of the current yacht licensing system for just that reason. I am also a very strong supporter of formal training, for reasons that have been embarrassingly illustrated.
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "I spent an hour filling out the form ..."

    Maybe it's a good time to lighten up and tell sea stories. I applied for mine before the Port Everglades office was open so had to go to Miami. The online bit went very well, which was surprising. I managed to get an appointment about two weeks later and went down, waited in the trailers for about half and hour and then spent another half hour going through the processing. The girl said that since my MMD was recent (just renewed) the TWIC should be ready in less than 4 weeks.

    A month later I hadn't heard anything so tried to check the status online. The website said I was not enrolled! Hour long wait on the phone to hear a young lady say "Oh, yeah, that part of the system isn't working very well and the cards are taking about 8 weeks now."

    Four weeks later I get a call saying the card is ready. Drive down to Port of Miami to pick it up and find they have turned the free parking lot into a paid parking lot to take advantage of the TWIC business. I frowned at the lady and she let me park for free. The trailer was full of longshoremen and port cops picking up their cards. The longshore guys were cursing a blue streak at having to pay to park. Waited for a half hour then spent another 15 minutes while the lady breathed life into the card. Finally TWIC'ed!

    Funny thing though, a friend tried to use his to get past the jackbootettes at FLL airport screening and they told him the card was not valid ID. Go figure.

    I went down to Miami to visit a friend passing through on a containership, was on the ship's visitor list, had a TWIC and MMD but since it was late the Miami cops had the bridge blocked off to "keep out drug dealers" and no amount of talking would even get them to call port security or the gate to confirm my story. It looks like we will all be very safe and secure when we are locked in our cells each night.

    Oh well, Lockheed made a few bucks off me anyway and I am sure they have bills to pay too.
  13. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    I did read your posts, and none of what you said in this one was effectively communicated in the others. ;)
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    "... none of what you said in this one was effectively communicated in the others."

    Geez, so now you want effective communication on top of good ideas and clear thinking? :D

    Ok, thanks for the input. One of the dangers of self editing ... I thought I wrote what I said I meant in my head when I was typing it ... or something like that anyway. :rolleyes:
  15. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    We've all done it, especially on subjects where we have passionate points of view. No worries! :D
  16. GalvBayTex

    GalvBayTex New Member

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    I have my ticket(s)...what now?

    :confused: thanks for the lively discussion regarding the current status of licensing, supply and demand for captains and the like...

    now...what advice can the group give to those of us (41 yrs old and older) who wish to enter the industry for the first time?

    I am a US citizen, have passed my classroom work for USCG 100 ton Masters and MCA Master Of Yachts 200T. I also have been to the office for my TWIC and am waiting for the pick up date. I am submitting the documents for both and do not expect any issues other than the normal processing time.

    I was laid off a month ago from a desk job and I am trying to break free of the corporate world and not get sucked back in, but I need some help taking the first step.

    Anyone else recently go down the path?

    CB
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    GalvBayTex,
    For me it came 20 years ago at age 38. What I can tell you is that it's gotten harder. Sorry. The key is to be flexible and pay your dues. Everyone's path is different. Mine took me through working in a boatyard under some oldtime masters, followed by cleaning oilspills, dinneryachts, launch work, sport fishing, owning a tour boat, managing (2) marinas, doing deliveries, teaching, p/t captain, yacht management, etc., etc. That's after a lifetime of recreational boating. The fact is that even back then doors weren't open to "an old guy". I had to kick down every one.
    Let me give you a lesson on what not to do. A few years back I had a new 50GT as my deckhand on a Florida run. At our first stop I showed him how I like a boat secured and told him that by the time we reach Florida he'll be a good deckhand. He told me "I don't have to learn how to be a deckhand, I'm a captain". I think he now sells shoes. Learn to be a good deckhand.
  18. luckylg

    luckylg New Member

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    Good point NYCAP123: Be exceptional at the job you're getting paid to do, not second guessing the guy who has the job you would like to have.
  19. SSLillypad

    SSLillypad New Member

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    Yes there is nothing worse to do than act like a know it all. There is always something new to learn. I just hooked up with a new position in May and I'm in the over 40 group and was on land based jobs for most of my time. I've had my captain license and 10 years on inland waters, so I'm excited to spend time on near costal waters and learn something every day. I'm now a deckhand. You need to be able to still keep up with the tougher duties that comes your way with these starting positions until you get other positions come your way.
  20. DRose

    DRose Guest

    nooobie

    I am also over forty(43) But I am not a capt. or do I ever plan on becoming one. I am on the other hand a Chef and Massage Therapist. I have been working as a carpenter/whatever is needed guy for the past five years building custom Carolina boats.
    I want to get into the crew end of things. I do have some delivery and deckhand/mate experience on sportfishers and a couple of cruisers.
    My question is what kind of certification would I need to become more desirable as a chef's mate/deck hand/stew/crew type of person.
    I have been a life guard most of my life and have all kinds of construction experience.
    I know this is the wrong place for this question but most of the people posting here seem to be intelligent and on top of things going on in the industry.
    Thanks,
    Danny