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AB, Mangusta, Leopard?

Discussion in 'Mangusta Yacht' started by ttkrule, Aug 5, 2012.

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  1. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    Hi,

    I'm curious about the planing, GRP, jet cruisers like the Overmarine Mangusta, AB yachts or the CNA Leopard.

    How do these or any other of the same type compare in ride, quality, price, reliability...? How do they hold up over time?

    Do any of you have direct experience with them?

    Thank You
  2. YachtForums

    YachtForums Publisher/Admin

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    Getting some popcorn. This should be interesting...
  3. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    I don't know much about AB's, but I do have experience with both Mangustas and Leopards. I've owned a 1994 23 meter leopard for the last five years, I honestly don't have anything bad to say about it. For it's age, I think the construction techniques used were way ahead of their time, the entire interior is built with cored materials, the rigging is well done and the machinery space is well thought out. The only criticisms I have of the boat is that it's a little too narrow at the waterline for it's beam at the rubrail and there's no reason for the boat to have eight fuel tanks which only makes maintenance and tank monitoring a royal pain in the ass. I've also done extensive work on a 32 meter 2007 leopard which I wasn't too impressed with. The boat really seemed like it was thrown together without thought, almost like the people who installed the electrical system did so after the rest of the boat was built with absolutely no communication with any of the other trades that were assembling the boat. Disappointing to say the least.

    As far as Mangusta's concerned, my experience has been limited to spending time on an 80 that I'm negotiating to buy to replace my leopard. The boat is very well built but there are simple things that really turn me off like the use of virola plywood for exterior seating modules. The furniture is built out of wood that has no business being on a boat, let alone outside in the weather, and is then primed and painted. Invariably this stuff goes the hell in no time. How could you do something like this on a vessel of this caliber?

    The only upside to these boats right now is that the market has tanked, IMO, values are at an all time low therefore you can get a hell of a deal on one. I don't feel bad about my boat being worth a fraction of what I paid for it simply because the boat that I want to replace it with is now worth half of what it was a few years ago.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    8 fuel tanks?????? What a royal PITA. Is there any way to marry 2 of them together with a crossover or anything? Or maybe use a transfer pump and manifold system and make 2 tanks day tanks, that way you could get more out of each tank without worrying about losing prime on the engines.......
  5. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    Cap, they're all connected and gravity fed to a manifold in the engine room. It's just stupid and unnecessary IMO.
  6. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Seatrialled an AB 68 Yachts back in the end nineties, before company was bought by the FIPA Group. I would say AB, is one of the best handling jet powered yachts around if not the best. The boat is designed with jet in mind from the start. And the owner of the time Eng. Arnaboldi is quite an expert on the subject, he would show videos of the boats navigating in rough weather in Genoa and talk about the subject for some time.

    I would categorize this way:
    - AB Yachts = most seaworthy and performing of the trio
    - Overmarine Mangusta = most good looking marina boat, well built but sea keeping is nothing special especially for the Surface Drives models
    - Cantiere dell Arno Leopard = built as tough as a Mangusta but with better hull and sea keeping capabilities.

    The last two hold value a bit better, with most people still preferring the looks of the Mangusta, then to the more Italian Leopard. In my experience who buys an AB Yachts is more concerned over performance, and sea handling.

    **** those fuel tanks, an Italian trait which comes from way back in time, I am not sure new models still have it though.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Or, what about a real boat, a Magnum?
  8. ombreetsoleil

    ombreetsoleil Senior Member

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    The magnum website is really outdated, and its hard to find any good information about the boats and yard. But I really like the sleek design of the magnum yachts.
  9. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Magnum is surely something special.
    A Mangusta, Leopard, or AB, cost about 25% more to a Pershing, 40% more to a Sunseeker on list price, Magnum is like +10% to any of these three.

    With Magnum you will get less a yacht, less space and more a boat to go out in any weather with loads of horses.
    Against Magnum, I would put a Baia, or an Itama (also owned by Ferretti Group). But the builders who used to make Itama in Rome now make a brand called XL Marine, I would look into those, they have a 70 in project and heard nice things about the smaller models; 43 and 51.
    But anything is always a step less to a Magnum in my books.

    I love Pershing's but honestly with all respect, and all the goods I can say about them (sold 4 as a broker a few years ago and all have been trouble free even a 10 years old 54) I always see them a step less to a Mangusta or Leopard when it comes to luxury and a solid build. They are still a bit better when it comes to the performance side though, mostly because they are a lighter boat.
  10. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    Very interesting info. I've also noticed the many used boats on the market for these types.
    I was thinking that aside from having higher running costs they possibly also represent a more emotional choice and may be bought using a higher fraction of total wealth compared to what might happen with displacements.

    Hence the relatively more pronounced used boats glut when the economic situation turns...

    Or am I overthinking?
    :)
  11. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I think that mostly is that these kinds of yachts had so much success in the last decade, that supply versus demand in the used market is also another reason of the yachts current large price bandwidth.
    Really 4 years ago I would have sold any Mangusta under 1 million EUROS if you could ever find one.

    I have very rarely here in the med though seen poor owners buying a Mangusta and Leopard. Actually the owners of these brands are usually quite wealthy and experienced.
    IMO the more emotional class buys more a Sunseeker, Princess, Azimut or Pershing, without offence to no one here.

    BTW other brands to consider in this type of yachts would be; Spertini Alalunga (Genoa), Cerri Marine (Viareggio), and Italcraft (Rome). I am speaking again for low volume custom builders here.
    Italcraft would be up a notch in seakeeping in my books. I went on there 105 (hull coming from a pilot boat a few years back, one of the first in Italy to have MTUs 2400hp. A real train on rails.....
  12. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    Didn't Cerri sell the company to the same person that bought off Baglietto (I forget his name)?

    You are not the first I hear to talk well of Italcrafts ride. Great tradition and technical qualities (they may also have been the first in Italy to adopt surface drives) and yet they probably sell a fraction of what Pershing does with their much stronger brand image (and "cool" name...)
    The other brands of the Rizzardi group probably also underperform.

    Speaking of surface drives what about the Canados 90 open? I'd be wary of models so different from the rest of a yard's production, but I read positively about it.
  13. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Yes Cerri sold to the new Baglietto owners, and they are building 2 86's this year one already delivered and another 102. I hope the project of the 70 also gains pace again, and who knows also of the 120.
    Carlo Cerri I think still owns 15% of share in the company.

    The Canados 90 Open was a bit something different from the Rome company, altough it is not the first time they build opens. I think they sold 5 or 6 of them.

    Italcraft was the first in the World to use surface drives, and tunnel for propellers. This Italian yard was first in innovations in the seventies and eighties thanks to a certain Renato Sonny Levi, and the vision of at the time owner Sonnino Sorriso.
    But the Rome/Naples Nautical pole in Italy has always been the most fresh, not only in the past but also as today.
    BTW Rizzardi/Posillipo just went belly up, altough Italcraft at the moment seems to be saved. Lets hope better for them, and the worker too....
  14. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    FYI this is the pilot boat from which the hull used for the Italcraft 90 and 105 Maxi Drago has come from, with little modifications.
    CANTIERI DEL GOLFO
  15. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    The writing was on the wall for Rizzardi. It's a shame for the Posillipo Technema line and even more so for Italcraft.
    I believe there is a business opportunity there especially with Italcraft to build it up in volumes leveraging the know how and the history. It's a great basis on which to develop a modern boat builder.

    Where did Rizzardi fail? Was it lack of investments in new models?
    Failure to communicate the boats' qualities and the weight of experience to a younger and increasingly non Italian potential market which is both unaware and dismissive of past accomplishments?
  16. joelemarco

    joelemarco New Member

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    Hello,

    Although this conversation dates a bit, I thought I would put in my experience with the yards ttkurles mentioned.
    As far as I m concerned, I would say Leopard are better boats. They are more seaworthy and the finish is nicer.
    That said the Mangustas look great, in particular the 108 in my opinion.
    They really are a bargain at the moment, as they are not anymore in the main trends of the market.
    As for the AB, they are surely interesting for the performance and the hydrojet propulsion (though some Mangustas are jet propelled).

    About the other yards mentionned in the later posts, I have never sailed on a Italcraft but I have heard they behave well, probably much better than Baias and Pershings.

    I hope this helps
  17. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    How do the Rizzardis compare? There appear to be many leopard, rizzardi, mangusta 2000 and newer that are under $400k. (23m size). Most of these appear to by lying in Italy. Seems to be a lot of boat for the money.

    How does the ride compare to a traditional pilot house like a 70 azimut seajet?

    Also, I see multiple listings for the same boat with the price all over the place. Is this an Eu thing. I don't get it.
  18. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    The Rizzardi with bridge are actually a Possilipo of the Technema series, in this case that would be the Possilipo 70 Technema.

    Some people still call them Rizzardi cause he owned Possilipo from 1993 till 2012 when he went bankrupt. The express are the Rizzardi, if you go in recent years they where building from 45 feet on-wards.
    I was at the Rizzardi and Italcraft factory and they seemed a nice builder back then. I know people who owned Rizzardi and all seemed happy about them.
    In my experience a Rizzardi-Possilipo by seeing both boats a Rizzardi will ride better to an Azimut as is the build quality.

    As for multiple listing most Italians do not like to give exclusive listings, also it might be a different boat all together. About 40, Possilipo 70 Technema where build in ten years time. If you are looking for the express you have to compare the Rizzardi CR73, that would be the boat to compare to a Mangusta and Leopard of the same size.

    I think build quality and standard of finish will be better in a Mangusta or Leopard of the same size, though the sea-keeping ride of those Rizzardi is a bit better. Rizzardi also owned Italcraft from 2005 till 2011 so if you want a more performance orientated keel hull shape you might as well check the 70 Drago they build.
  19. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    Wow. The 70' Drago by Italcraft is pretty sweet. These guys didn't go out of business because of ugly boats. Gorgeous design.
  20. Yacht News

    Yacht News YF News Editor

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    46-meter Leopard "Lisa IV" reversing into the spot in Ibiza at night