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a couple of questions

Discussion in 'Licensing & Education' started by Shug, Jul 20, 2010.

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  1. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Hi,

    Doing my EOOW board this Friday (to work on yachts with it).

    Transferring from submarine service (nuclear steam) so not familiar with a lot of stuff but I would like to post a few questions if anyone could answer them for me I'd be much obliged! (This forum is probably the most active I've seen.. and it's Wednesday already.. so time is short!)


    1. In the event of a flood, do you need the Chief Engineers permission to open the emergency bilge suction valve? (at sea and in port) (I've read conflicting dits)

    2. Is the fire main normally pressurised? Or pressurised in emergency only?

    3. Precautions Prior to entering a CO2 room

    4. On a 2 stroke diesel engine the cylinder side is lubricated seperately, this is non-replenishing system, where does the drain to after use and how is the level maintained?

    5. How is the fuel line primed on the diesel prior to starting?



    I must apologise to anyone who thinks I want to be spoon fed but the books don't cover the 'experience' questions and I've surfed the net for endless hours trying to find the information so I would appreciate it very much if someone could spare five minutes to help me out.

    Thanks in advance,

    Shug
  2. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Since K1W1 hasn't chimed in with the Doddering Old Tooters preferred answers I will offer the American version until he arrives. :D

    You are the engineer officer on watch, if you see an emergency developing it is your responsibility to deal with it until a higher ranked engineer takes over or you have to evacuate the space. Push the engineers "all call" button to alert the rest of the engineers to assist. Notify the bridge of the problem. Open the emergency bilge suction.

    Unless you mean the sprinkler/fogging system as on passenger vessels or deluge system as used on RoRo vessel car decks, the fire main is not normally pressurized until the fire pump is needed. Emergency doesn't really apply since the fire main is used for all sorts of washdown purposes as well.

    Not sure what the examiner wants to hear but the idea is to ensure that the space has been ventilated and the door is not closed while you are in there.

    Each scavenge space has a drain near the piston rod gland that drains to a manifold then to a drain tank. What level? When the drain tank is full it is pumped to waste oil and then to the aux boiler or ashore with slops. If it fills rapidly it sets off an alarm and you will get very hot and really really dirty for the next few hours.

    Are we still talking slow speeds? There is a fuel feed pump that takes a suction from the day tank, delivers fuel to the heaters and viscometer then to the fuel boost pump that supplies the injection pump. The injection pump has a bypass line that returns to the HFO day tank. A couple of hours before maneuvering the heaters and pumps are started and the system is pressurized with hot oil (or MDO if the vessel maneuvers on diesel.)

    If you mean a larger 4 stroke running on diesel, there is a fuel boost pump that supplies fuel to the injection pumps. That pump is started and pressurizes the pump inlets. That is the pressure you read on the gauge that says "Fuel Pressure."

    Hope that helps at least a little bit ...
  3. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Thanks Marmot, clears those questions up, great!

    I do have another question,

    Apparently electrical shore supply can't be paralleled with the generators? I don't really understand how they can be transferred over without losing supplies? (We parallel shore supply with generators then offload the generators to shore supply..)

    I read a question about the ship being alongside with the emergency generator running, go through the procedure for sailing...

    1. Is the emergency generator always running when alongside?

    2. Do you just take the hit on non-essential supplies when shutting down generators and going onto shore supplies?

    3. When heating the jacket etc on the engine when warming up before starting, where is the hot water coming from?? Is there a hot water circuit feeding it and how is it heated?

    A brief overview would be appreciated, thanks.
    Can't find these ones either, if I can understand these basics I can form my answer easier than just saying it and hoping he doesn't delve deeper!

    I know the title is a 'couple of questions' but err, here's a couple more.. :)

    Shug
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Marmots answers are good as one would expect from such a wiley old Seadog who appears to be on the 12 to 06 routine this week :)

    Here is an official answer to No 2,

    Solas II-2 Reg 10.2.1 states:

    SOLAS requires passenger ships in excess of 1000GT, and cargo ships with UMS, to have immediate availability of water from the fire main. It does not state that this must be by permanent pressurization of the fire main, and , certainly for cargo ships, permits the "immediate" requirement to be met by having fire pump remote starting from the bridge and fire control station.


    10.2.2 carries on with:

    With periodically unattended machinery spaces or when only one person is required on watch, there shall be immediate water delivery from the fire main system at a suitable pressure, either by remote starting of one of the main fire pumps with remote starting from the navigating bridge and fire control station, if any, or permanent pressurization of the fire main system by one of the main fire pumps, except that the Administration may waive this requirement for cargo ships of less than 1600 GT if the fire pump starting arrangement in the machinery space is in an easily accessible position.

    Question 3: You have not indicated if this is the CO2 Locker where the Bottles are stored or a space that has been flooded with CO2.

    Your CO2 Storage Locker should have deck drain to the exterior in event of a leak the heavier than air gas should run outside harmlessly.

    Entering a room that has been flooded with CO2 is a whole different scenario.

    You are ex RN. What did they beat and burn into you in basic training about Confined Space Entry procedures, and Entering CO2 Flooded spaces?

    It is pretty much the same for a yacht or a ship.

    Determining the fire is extinguished is very important, this can be done by seeing a reduction in smoke, a noticeable reduction in heat in the structure/ doors etc. Always remember when feeling doors you use the back of your hand, stay low when opening the door in case of an eruption of flame.

    Your protected space should also have at least one fan that can be used to ventilate the space after a release.

    Is this an Oral or written examination you are going for?

    If it is Oral do not panic and keep your answers simple and to the point. If you have some yacht experience and he asks you a question where you can accurately describe what you do or did on your yacht do this don't try to fabricate an answer. It is easier to say this is how it was done and these were the procedures onboard than to try and make up something you think he wants to hear and blowing yourself out of the water big style.

    Now onto your next list of questions.
    1. Is the emergency generator always running when alongside?

    This is not a normal situation I am familiar with. It may be used sometimes when the load is way too light for a normal set but then only if it can backfeed to MSB. MSB backfeeding is not every Classification Societies cup of tea and it can only be used for testing of Emerg Genset normally in my experience.
    What goes on in the real world however might be quite different to what the rules state. (Don't tell the examiner this last bit)

    2. Do you just take the hit on non-essential supplies when shutting down generators and going onto shore supplies?

    Some of what you will be asked will be so far behind the times as far as antique equipment and procedures it is not funny. If you cannot synchronize the two supplies for a split second you will have to black out one to bring the other online. It is a good idea to shed as much load as possible when doing this and to re apply it in steps once the new supply is available.

    3. When heating the jacket etc on the engine when warming up before starting, where is the hot water coming from?? Is there a hot water circuit feeding it and how is it heated?

    For the most part on yachts where there are JW Heaters fitted they will be in the form of an immersion heater that is somehow interlinked to the JW System, it relies upon natural convection to provide circulation and will normally have a thermostat in control of the operation. MTU on the other hand used to have a wonderfully complicated unit with a small heater unit with it's own circ pump running away all the time.

    As for the procedures for sailing you should have a pre sailing checklist, one or more of the items may refer to the availability of gensets depending on how many you need for thrusters etc, it should also cover the basics such as fuel valves open as required, SW Valves open, EXH Valves open, Ventilation on/ Test of comms to WH/ER/Emerg Control and Steering Flat etc. Test of Steering Gear/Thrusters/Whistle. F.O Pury on. Daytank levels and the list can go on and on and .....

    I personally like to have a few more things such a Fluids and Lubes confirmation on the list as well.

    It may seem daunting at first but once you get into the routine it is pretty quick and simple.

    My wife says I used to be in my own little world in the hours before getting going as I went through a mental list of things as we prepared to get underway just making sure all the procedures and checks were done and we could get away as required.

    I think that is about it for the mo, This might be my biggest post yet.
  5. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Thank

    I am actually still in the RN, I don't leave until October and was hoping to complete the oral as I have to go to sea for five weeks immediately prior to leaving (gone are the days of a couple of months in a shore based position prior to 'going outside..' for submariners anyway!)
    I'm hoping to work on yachts when I leave but I'll see how that goes, might consider doing my sea time on a merchant vessel to go for class 2... but, probably better to concentrate on passing this first.. :)

    It is the EOOW (Motor) oral board that I am doing on Friday.
    Hopefully do my Y3 oral in September sometime too. I passed the Stat Ops exam for that which has actually helped a lot for the EOOW study.

    I was referring to the CO2 locker storage room in the question but thanks for the dit about re-entering the space, good info!

    We have a Nitrogen drench system, a Halon (Halon bottles are just stored in the accommodation flat!) system for the diesel compartment (I know, same procedure for re-entering) and three foam systems on the submarine.

    Sorry, I didn't specify that I was mainly concerned with the warming through of the large 2 strokes on the merchant ships - similar method? rough time frame?

    A superintendent (My mates Dad!) said you warm through for a day or two..?

    Something you made me think of there,

    When testing emergency generator is it simply paralleled to the main switch board?


    Thanks KIWI, operational stuff is where I'm falling down, I'm more worried about if he asks me to flash up a boiler from cold and similar questions.

    I found some good websites, http://www.marineengineering.org.uk and http://www.marinediesels.info, http://www.dieselduck.ca but none of them actually go into procedures of course, as a cadet has had six months of flashing boilers, evaps etc..

    I heard the examiner usually starts by asking about your last vessel... HMS Vanguard... so it's not even as though I have any idea what to expect really!

    Anyway, I'm drivelling on, got some lists to memorise.. haha

    Thanks again KIWI and Marmot.

    Shug
  6. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    On most ships there is an oil fired auxiliary boiler. Steam from this "donkey boiler" is delivered to heat exchangers in the high temperature or jacket water circuit (high temp loop in Americanese.) Since port calls on merchant ships are so short the jacket water is kept hot all the time. There are also heat exchangers on the lube oil circuit as it is normal practice to "get the oil up" a few hours before start as circulating hot lube oil brings the rest of the engine up to temperature as well as reducese the viscosity for the centrifuges. The same applies to fuel oil when burning heavy oil, it is heated and circulated to keep it from congealing and to prevent problems with the fuel pumps cooling too much. If the ship is shut down for long periods, at least a day is required to bring everything back up to temperature. There is a lot of iron to heat and that takes a lot of BTUs as you know.

    If it is a true test of the system rather than just a short run to show that the diesel runs and power can be produced, the emergency buss tie is opened. This removes all power from those circuits powered by the EDG and initiates a start, just like in real life if you lose power. When the test is performed this way, all the normal loads remain on the ships service generator or shore power through the main switchboard. All those circuits powered by the emergency buss will be lost for a short period before the EDG starts and takes the load. This is why is very important to schedule this test and advise the bridge before opening the buss tie. There are many items with low voltage dropouts that will need to be restarted manually on emergency power as well as some systems that are powered only by the emergency buss. Lube oil circuits with redundant pumps for example have one pump powered off the main buss, the other off the emergency buss so if #1 is running it will quit and #2 should go online. It is important to know what systems are powered by what and make sure the lineups are correct for automatic changeover.

    As far as not paralleling with shore power, some ships can, others can't. It depends on when and where they were built. In my personal experience, it was very rare to parallel with shore power. With the recent advent of "cold ironing" at many container ports this is changing as it will become the norm to shut down all ship's power generation and plug the boat in so paralleling will probably become the norm and no one will believe that a ship would actually go dark if it wasn't on fire or sinking.
  7. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Ah, ok, brilliant, pieces are coming together, so prior to sailing from cold the boiler will be run up at the beginning (the day or so before) in order to warm through the fuel and jacket component warming through (high temp loop ;)) ?

    If I'm right in thinking the oil for the boiler is from the settling tank and not the day tank, this fuel is unpurified etc

    So you will have to run the aux boiler on light diesel to keep in with the sulphur limits etc (MARPOL) when doing that?

    When changing over from HFO to LFO - The main thing to take care with is the viscosity as the heaters are controlled via a viscotherm to maintain the viscosity.
    LFO will have a higher viscosity for the same temperature.
    It is possible to overheat the LFO if a straight immediate switch is made.

    Therefore a controlled mix of the HFO and LFO must be carried out to bring about a steady flow of LFO to the engine before completely isolating the HFO.
    There are machines that automatically complete the changeover where a timer is set to mix the two fuels and make the changeover.#

    And similarly vice-versa?

    Is that an acceptable answer?

    Thanks again, I appreciate you guys giving me the time when you don't even know me, if you did, I'd buy you a pint... pitcher.. :)

    Shug
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I wish I had more time to help but this is getting a bit long ... no complaint, just short on time and it's breakfast here.

    If the ship has been cold iron or laid up and everything is at ambient temperature, the EDG or shore power is used to start the pumps needed to deliver MDO to the boiler and fire up the DGs. When a DG is running on MDO the EDG can be shut down or shore power removed and the ship begins to stir. When there is steam or thermal oil available it goes to heat the bunkers settlers, day tank, jacket water and galley kettles. The boiler almost always runs on MDO. When at sea it can be fired with blended waste oil but never in my experience burns HFO as a normal practice in automatic firing mode. The silly things are problematic enough without burdening it with an HFO system.

    Not all ships changeover to MDO for maneuvering but there is a mixing tank for that purpose. The process is slow because you don't want to heat MDO and you can't just turn a valve to supply cold MDO to a hot fuel system or you will seize the injection pumps in a heartbeat and the chief will really be upset, and the captain too. Remember there is a great deal of thermal inertia in these systems. The fuel then goes to the viscosity control device which adjusts the temperature to provide the correct viscosity to the injectors.
  9. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Marmot, yeah, sorry if I took the proverbial ! I should be paying good money for this kind of help (as it happens I never had the time off work to do an oral prep, if I fail I'll fork out and do one whilst I'm unemployed in September) :eek:

    Thanks a great deal for your help, you've provided me with good information here and it will definitely help me out a lot with the board. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.

    I'm going to get my head back in the books now anyway after clearing these 'couple of questions up..' :)

    Enjoy your breakfast, have a nice day and I'll let you know I got on..

    Shug
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    No problem. Please don't hesitate to ask but since it's an MCA oral there might be better answers from others (K1W1 for a start) so don't take mine as the final word.

    And, don't try to bluff your way through a system or technique you are unfamiliar with. Tell the examiner what you have done, and what you have studied. Your level of understanding of what you have worked on and have done is what matters, it means you can learn, did learn, and know how put all the important bits in the right order. This is interpreted as being able to apply that same process to new-to-you systems and techiques. Since the EOOW is the entry level ticket, it is a license to learn, not a post graduate diploma.

    Good luck, it only hurts for a little while and it feels so good when it's over ... kind of like a dental procedure really. Well worth it in the long run.
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    The problem with all the brain strain and study for things you never get asked about or ever see again is that most of it is lost in the annals of time a lot quicker than you realize.

    I am looking at returning to sea as C/E on a 80m new build I am doing after a nearly 10 yr hiatus so my checklists and procedures will be getting the dust blown off them in the not too distant future.
  12. Shug

    Shug New Member

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    Thanks guys!

    Hi,

    I passed the EOOW oral exam this morning, so very chuffed and relieved. I know it's only the beginning but a big weight off my shoulders.

    Thanks again to KIWI and Marmot for your contributions that undoubtedly helped me pass.

    Cheers!

    Shug
  13. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Congratulations!

    Am glad to hear there is another well trained and experienced engineer in the pool. Let me know when you are ready to start looking for a boat.

    Now, your first assignment is to tell us what he asked and what he wanted to hear.
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Congratulations on that one. Now you can be let loose on the world and really see how things operate on a yacht.
  15. valmacmiami

    valmacmiami New Member

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    hello Shug
    I was looking at some of the replies you had and one that sticks out is the
    what to do on entering a CO2 flooded room
    I asked some local firefighters on this one and they said 24 hours is the time that should pass before re entering they were a bit vague on it but the thing the did say is that on reentry you should be suited up and with BA Set carrying a hose to damp down any possible flare ups after it has been confirmed the fire is out then vent and check with meters before unprotected entry can be made
  16. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    The question was on "entering a CO2 room" no mention was made of a "CO2 flooded" room. A ship with a fixed CO2 flooding system usually has what is called a "CO2 room" where the high pressure bottles or a very large low pressure tank of refrigerated liquid CO2 is stored. You don't want to be in that room with the door closed and no ventilation.

    And 24 hours is a long time to sit on a dead ship in the middle of the ocean while the engine room floods with seawater or fuel oil from fire damage that has not been identified yet. There are several reasns they were "vague" and are the same reasons I would not tell them how to attack a burning warehouse in a city.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I guess the firemen you asked are fully versed in marine fire fighting.

    You might be surprised to find that City Fire Departments manage to put out a lot of yacht fires by filling them up with water till they sink.

    A room where CO2 has been used as the extinguishing media can be entered sooner than 24 hrs, I would always recommend entering any such space where it has been released suited up in a BA with a charged hose and with a backup fire team member behind you.

    You might very well need to enter it when it's still fairly warm for the reasons Marmot mentioned above. Something causes these fires and in the Engine Room it is often leaking liquids onto hot surfaces.