Discussion in 'Ocean Alexander Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jul 20, 2015.
It's also possible the USA, even if it could, wouldn't lift a finger to get involved.
There's only one party to this with enough motivation to continue to try to get answers. The insurer. But then they only benefit from getting it returned in good condition.
If it was in the banks possession, You think the defaulted/purchaser is going to continue insurance payments? I'm not sure if banks insure anything in there possession like we would. Maybe a named peril for storage and the rest self (bank) insured?
I also wonder, When big boats are re-possessed, the US Marshal can be involved in her retrieval and a sticker is on the doors. Anybody notice a sticker?
Then, who's boat is it with that sticker on the doors?
Banks normally pick up policies when consumer defaults on their policies. As mortgagee they are named as second insured. However, who knows how much experience this bank has with boats.
One of the articles stated that 9 out of 10 boat repossessions are voluntary. That number sounds high to me. However, even on the non-voluntary, most do not require US Marshals to get involved.
Sticker doesn't change ownership.
From my experience most repo's are voluntary and 9 out of 10 sounds about right. The owners know it's going to happen. Before it happens they are still responsible for some expenses like slip fee's and once it happens those are cut. They're in a bad financial position and saving their main home are their main worries, the boat is dispensible. It's also easier on their credit if it's voluntary. The bank may not go after them for the difference. HOWEVER, some will try to resist because the yacht or plane is typically the first one repo'd, and once that happens every other creditor jumps on the bandwagon and quickly follows suit.
The U.S. Marshall is rarely involved as it takes almost an additional year to go through the courts and get them to seize it as well as multiple other expenses in addition to the litigation expenses, so what goes on is you just steal it technically to get possession sort of like on airplane repo. Once you're on board and inside the vessel, you have possession. Once they have possession with the court order then it's the banks property. Also in the time you're going through the U.S. Marshalls then they just move it to say the Bahamas and then it even further delays and complicates it.
Like I said earlier I've done about 2 dozen of them, for the repo agent who was doing a lot of them for the largest marine lender. 9 out of 10 were voluntary, it's at this marina, here are the papers, the key is in the marina office, go over there and bring it back. Only one of them went really South.
Humm... let me add a bit of skullduggery to this thread...
The simple solution is to re-reposese the boat. How is this done... simply with a little paperwork and guts... as who really keeps tab on the boat all the time unless a livaboard...
Warning this is legal but not advised.
The owner takes and antedates a note to a third party company... dated before the other lien... records a mortgage in any of many offshore jurisdictions properly dated the same date as the note and tied to the note by reference. The recordation of the mortgage can be at anytime... The tired party a company in the offshore jurisdiction repossess the boat and does what it wants... as it has the superior lien... taking the boat to an offshore jurisdiction... forecloses in the offshore place.... they could is sell the boat back to the original owner over there after the foreclosure... but why... they can anybody they want that is not necessary but can legally happen. They could keep it too. Almost impossible for the lien(s) holders in the USA to do anything about... and they will just write off.
And the US lien holder goes after the owner for Fraud, and he ends up in jail.
There is nothing at all legal about what you describe and I'm beginning to wonder why it is you seem to have schemes for circumventing laws of every type.
Capt J... only if he is stupid... done properly he's the victim of the mortgage fraud... see you have too honest of mind... to imagine the whole scheme.
I am not going to post the whole scheme laid out in detail... you can be assured of that... but I am trying to wake people up... there are more pitifalls than you can imagine.
I have been victim several times...
Long , long ago in a place far aweigh (Jackson Marine, Liquordale), I was helping find a particular model boat for a friend and there she was.
US Marshal service had just delivered it to this location. The bank was already trying to sell it before formal advertizing and other cost.
I remember letters in my friends hand from the bank and US Marshals office authorizing us to enter & inspect the boat. Felt cool cutting and tearing away the Marshal stickers from the doors with everybody in the yard staring and pointing.
Story was the bank had been chasing the boat from San Diego for a long time. Missed her in the P canal. She got to close to Miami a year later and the Marshal service intercepted her. Towed her up the New river to hide her.
Over 25 years ago that was cool. The only time I had ever been involved with anything like it. Never thought about the US Marshals and big boats again till this thread.
Well who really is the owner... ???
Well.... so you jump to conclusions. Legally the owner is the person who's boat who possess it or who publicly recorded is legally the only owner in the jurisdiction of recording... (in that jurisdiction) even if a bank gets a judgement until a sheriffs or marshals sale is complete and a 'bill of sale in such is issued' the owner is still the owner legally and can do anything he wants with his property. But the boat could legally be owned in two jurisdictions which much different law and neither may agree with the other.
Furthermore, antedating a note or mortgage is legal (in USA) and many other jurisdictions.
What you all forget is what K1W1 pointed out is many jurisdictions are not very friendly to the USA.
Furthermore, criminal acts must be reasonably prosecuted in the jurisdiction the of the offense takes place. Well in the USA you can go from state to state and cross different jurisdictions and even have Federal jurisdiction on the matter if it happens in the USA or territory controlled by the USA. There are famous Supreme court cases where several jurisdictions are involved... and that gets real complicated but that is in one country. What about two or three or four involved.
If the owner signs the new note/mortgage with antedate in another jurisdiction with that security interest owned outside of the USA remember he has fundamental property rights in the USA and remember the boat is in the USA... however, the USA does not have jurisdiction for acts he does outside its territory unless they are illegal in the USA. It is not an illegal act in the USA to sign a note/mortgage at anytime you are the owner of the property, even after Judgment, even if it is antedated or post dated fundamental instrument under UCC which all states have adopted by in large the same. So he has committed no illegal act in either jurisdiction. Many many many loans are made with liens already there and a loan company or bank holding a lien very well and likely may not know of other liens... this is not illegal in of itself. Filling out a bogus loan application is legal in the USA but not all the time elsewhere but there may not be a loan application in every case and what jurisdiction was that done in ???
Now if the new company owning the new security interest that legally predated the old forecloses and takes possession of the boat... and take it out of jurisdiction of USA... there is NOTHING the USA can do or the bank in the USA can do. It is not an illegal act in the USA to reposes a boat. The boat was in a public place and fully accessible... they did not trespass to take it, or get caught if they did, and had the full authority of law behind them, even if the owner himself does the act. Let's say the sheriff is called and unless the sheriff or marshal has been ordered by a court to hold the boat he has no say... and its bye bye boat... and the guys doing it may have documentation protecting them and law enforcement does not like getting involved in such matters. In this case I don't see that it was in a sheriff's possession... they don't like holding things they like doing an auction on... unless they confiscated it for drugs or something and they are getting the money... but generally they do not like holding the property of others because they are legally responsible. And, I don't see that a Courted Ordered against the owner having access to his boat or anything and even if it had is there an order against someone else with potential legal claim. I did not hear a sheriff had sold it and someone else owned it when it disappeared... that would be possibly an illegal act.
ITS GONE and possession is 9/10th the law in this type of matter.
The bank could track the boat to the new jurisdiction but if it had been legally sold to a new owner within the new jurisdiction there is nothing they could do but steal it... an illegal act.... in that jurisdiction... which in many places would end them up or the repressor in a real nasty prison or jail. Also, the recordation may very well not be public records easily accessed by the US Bank in the new jurisdiction. Even in the USA there are many companies who no one can now who in the hell owns the thing... legally.
And, this is the one that will blow you away the owner in both places may have the same name but there is no proof that is one person in either jurisdiction or proving such in court in either may be impossible. In lands to the south of the SOF of you many find when you buy a house or boat or something else there may be thirty people claiming ownership with the same last name or even numerous of those with the same first name as the guy you all are thinking about... think about that one for a minute and legal systems are not the same or work the same and you are not a native.
Now where does that leave the USA jurisdiction court... nowhere. Certainly Federal Bankruptcy Courts have lots of jurisdiction other courts don't in the USA but I don't see an asset being hidden involved in a bankruptcy filing and bankruptcy courts come up against many of the jurisdictional barriers... however, and be warned if someone with proven control of the asset is within the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy court that person may set in jail until the asset is produced for the court... famous divorce case in the USA where a lawyer set in jail 13 years until the asset was produced... but he was party to the divorce and proven the party hiding the asset. People in the USA tend to be absolutely arrogant as to these types of situations... and thereby vulnerable.
Karo....no wonder your location is "Dans la merde très très profondes".
I choose to be honest and to deal only with honest people. You seem to have more schemes for circumventing more laws than anyone I've ever known.
As to US and friendly and unfriendly, I don't deal in countries but just how I've been treated personally and I've always felt welcome every where I've been...well, the hospitality was remiss in one country.....and, oh....what country was that....aha.
Not my schemes but just relating the legal facts what is out there floating around...
So you never know really what the truth is... and it is always not so simple as the surface presents... I have been burned enough times... to get some clues. Yet most of us go around absolutely clueless.
The comment on my location is usually the situation with the ladies of the house... I cannot do anything right in their world... so you may have some support in calling them my schemes... but usually it is about me not doing everything expected, when expected, and how it was expected in a way that was expected... or if something is wrong it is always ever my fault and needing confession and forgiveness just not only from God.
I'm far from clueless. I just do due diligence and carefully select who to deal with plus I don't try plans or schemes or whatever you want to call them that open me to a greater probability of being burned. Really, if I'd been burned many times, I'd think perhaps I was pushing the envelope a bit far.
But then my life is and always has been far less complicated than yours seems.
As to what happened with this boat, I don't know. All I know for certain is that someone knew it was there and not being watched closely and decided to take it. They also had a long enough lead from the apparent information to be far away and out of range of local law enforcement. I'm sure there's far more to the story before and after the theft that we may never know.
A bit more information that may or may not be true but from the Palm Beach newspaper.
Police said that after the boat was repossessed, friends of the previous owners threatened Lab Marine that they'd try to get the boat back for them by any means necessary. NBC Miami reported that the yacht was registered in the Philippines with the previous owners owing about $700,000 on it.
One witness told authorities that a man named “Jake,” who works at the marina, could’ve been involved with the theft, but no arrests have been made.
Without passing judgement on any members business capabilities, I do not understand how or why a person would get involved in a complicated deal to buy a yacht in a foreign country? In any business dealings involving different jurisdictions you look for the best legal advice from the start, follow guide lines, especially nowadays when so much information is available online and use escrow/trust accounts for funds.
I have purchased small and large boats numerous times in the US, as well as a classic car.
On many occasions I was offered great deals, especially on cars, but also one particular boat and it did not take too much time to figure out or at least anticipate that the deal did not stack up. Greed and emotion are the enemy here, and the fact that the boat in point was too cheap, but had a convoluted story of ownership was almost overlooked by these factors.
If the deal is so good that you feel compelled to go for it, in spite of all the signs saying it seems too good to miss, then you are asking for trouble.
Not to say I have not had my share of trip ups, that’s paying for an education, but not over a yacht in a foreign country, that in itself has enough risk to not increase the odds by not keeping it simple.
The US has very strong laws in regards to property leaving the country. A Coast Guard clearance is mandatory.
The money stays in escrow until I have that clearance and possession of the boat.
Use the best people you can find, brokers, lawyers, shipping agents (surveyors too, Malcolm Elliot, Mate, you are very good and not cheap!). Pay extra for the best advice and then…take that advice even if the deal is so good!
In short, keep it simple and stay within the well-worn tracks that the law has paved and although there is still risk, you have minimised it.
If and probably when I buy a vessel in Europe, I will PM you karol1776 for advice and recommendations of the right people to go to. I would do the same with others on YF and elsewhere until I was sure I had all the facts on the ways of the country from which I am importing the boat, and lastly, I would keep my money in my pocket or MY lawyers escrow until that vessel was in the hands of my people.
"Apparently they manipulated fuel line fittings that had been removed. The reason: To prevent the boat's theft."
This drives me nuts... Why can't newspaper hire people who can write ?? , how the hell do you "manipulate" fuel line fittings that are not even there??? What... Are those thieves magicians?? Or Jesus? Oh wait...he manipulated missing bread and fishes, not fuel fittings... The level of stupidity displayed by the "press" is mind boggling, no wonder most of the American people have become so stupid and misinformed!
Ok seriously... I saw this on FB a week ago, makes no sense. There is nothing to rip off this boat worth the risk of getting caught! What... A couple of used MFDs? If you want to steal a boat you snatch a high performance triple or quad or quintuplet outboard CC not s used trawler.