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60-meter British Flagged Vessel FOX sinks in Thailand

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Master John, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. Capex39

    Capex39 New Member

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    Marmot you are correct, however, within the context of the "Thai way" of doing things, it is very relevant and unless you have personal experience you wont appreciate the difference. The way things are done in Thailand are "different" and Western logic does not apply. Believe me after 20 years in the country and having built pleasure boats here, I believe that I can speak with some authority on the subject, as well as knowing the people concerned.
    My guess is that following standard Thai procedure, the threat of enquiries and investigations will continue for years until everyone has forgotten about it and the problem will then have disappeared and you and I will be none the wiser.
  2. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I have none at all in Thailand though I have had work performed in a few yards in Korea, Japan, and Taiwan so I understand the cultural differences between the Asian way and the European way of thinking and doing things.

    Panya has better training than many of the architects/engineers in Western yards, that was my point. He is not a squat in the sand native boatbuilder who has no concept of the behavior of a hull during a slipway launch.

    And that is what I think is strange about this incident, the guy knows how to do it right. What went wrong? Maybe the answer to that does lie in the "Thai way" and maybe he was ignored at some point for some reason that we will never know by someone who believed the risk was worthwhile. I would think that the brothers, more than anyone else, would want that information out there if they were also victims.

    And the difference between Thailand and the rest of the world when it comes to yacht disasters is ? :D

    Happy Christmas in your part of the world!
  3. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Okay, I understand the "Western Standard" sentiments.
    Heard the same nonsense when I lived and worked in Asia and Africa, in countries that are not of "Western Standard”
    Yet I find your gross generalisation offensive to so many people. It is not the “Western” in the equation, it is the ”Standard!”
    Try completing any project in any country without qualified supervision or dedication and results will be the same.
    There are MANY qualified and capable Thais available, they just expect a remuneration equal to their capabilities!
    Another point: The “expatriates” in these countries are often full of the same sentiments you have, yet enjoy being the superior being in these so called “sub-standard” countries. They rarely return to their Western countries because they will just be another average person, instead of the “White Face” with privilege
  4. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Western Standard is a definite misnomer. It's simply insistence on quality as discussed in several other threads such as the questions about the Berger layoffs and will they be able to find the craftsmen available when they again try to gear up or will their standard of quality slip. There is an abundance of incompetent workers everywhere. Some people accept it more readily though. European and western civilizations have high quality within reach of their memories. The Far & Middle east have accepted low quality for several generations. Yet, if they can stretch their memories, there is a rich heritage. Chinese and Japanese art was revered for centuries. Everything today though is price, price, price until the yacht rolls over or the hull delaminates. I think that today it has almost gotten to the point where people are again learning that you get what you pay for. Hopefully it's not to late. As for the expatriate situation, I prefer to be the big fish in a small pond also. You're less likely to let things slide when there is nobody to blame but yourself. Quality isn't cheap, and not everyone can afford it, but it's a wonderful thing.
  5. tirekicker11

    tirekicker11 Senior Member

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    Kafue you couldn't be more right!
    Especially in Thailand you'll find western people at jobs where Thai would perform way better. They are usually the arrogant expat kind because they know they own their position because they're white, not because of experience and skill. Apart from that many of them have burned all their chances back home.
    An expat who owns his position because of his knowledge will treat the locals as equals and tries to work with them not against them.
    I've seen these deranged axpats all over SE Asia. Would be nice if Thailand would re-organise their Visa system so that only qualified people can stay for longer periods of time.
  6. Anderschou

    Anderschou New Member

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    B..bb....bbut Marmot and All

    What about the Neocolonial Mandate?


    And pass the port,

    To the left if you please, sirrah


    Anderschou
  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    As an old steamboat chief my favorite from Kipling is McAndrew's Hymn.

    "Lord, send a man like Robbie Burns to sing the Song o' Steam!
    To match wi' Scotia's noblest speech yon orchestra sublime
    Whaurto - uplifted like the Just - the tail-rods mark the time.
    The Crank-throws give the double-bass; the feed-pump sobs an' heaves:
    An' now the main eccentrics start their quarrel on the sheaves.
    Her time, her own appointed time, the rocking link-head bides,
    Till - hear that note?-the rod's return whings glimmerin' through the guides.
    They're all awa! True beat, full power, the clangin' chorus goes
    Clear to the tunnel where they sit, my purrin' dynamoes."
  8. tumbleweed tim

    tumbleweed tim New Member

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    I used to work at National Steel, Campbell’s, and San Diego Marine Construction building ships. I have worked on many ships from tuna seiners to oil tankers and Navy ships welding and fitting from bow to stern. I worked on huge stuff.

    But to answer your question, I have no idea why that bad boy flopped over. Never have I seen it happen at any yards I worked in, and I have seen some big ones slide across the bay stopping just short of Coronado.
    :confused:
  9. Alik

    Alik New Member

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  10. colintraveller

    colintraveller Senior Member

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    How many Yachts does that Yard launch in a year or is that there first project as such which the owner used instead of a more reputable Yard in Europe .

    because they were cheaper .
  11. colintraveller

    colintraveller Senior Member

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    My Dad worked at Yarrows on the Clyde and has 2 RFA vessels to his name before her left to seek pastures new

    only 3 instances that could have happend

    1 - sea cocks weren't secure / water tight compartments left open

    2 - vessel is top heavy

    3 - the EQ used to lower the vessel into the water the cables snapped under the extreme weight of vessel .. which i suspect is what lead to this ..
  12. Alik

    Alik New Member

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    I believe that boat was top heavy (added structure, outfit), there was no internal ballast installed prior to launch and the tanks were empty. Moreover, the stern door on photos is open.

    I never heard about any boat launched by this 'leading Asian superyacht builder' before.
  13. Master John

    Master John New Member

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    The owner is a good guy, this is just a classic example of the brokers SEANERGY LTD HK. trying to advise on something they know nothing about.

    Sad...!! Hope fully next time the owner will get better advise.
  14. Master John

    Master John New Member

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    This was to be there first, but now it's proberbly there last..!!

    Total lack of knowhow...!! Just a couple of marketing guy's...
  15. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    What any of us "believe" is irrelevant. If you weren't involved in the calculations then what you or any of us "believe" has no more relevance than our favorite color.

    The door might have been opened in order to facilitate dewatering after the boat was partially raised. There are not any pictures showing it open during the launch are there?
  16. tirekicker11

    tirekicker11 Senior Member

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    Interesting accusation.
    What exactly was Seanergy's role here?
    As far as I understand Seanergy was not in charge of the launch but acted as owners rep.
    Come with concrete information before you put the blame on someone with speculations.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    ... or anything else heavy to put onboard down low.

    I bet that someone involved with that project wishes that command had been issued sometime before the ill fated trip down the ways commenced.
  18. Master John

    Master John New Member

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    It's a fact that Seanergy introduced the owner to the Twist brothers.
    Have seanergy known there stuff they would have advised differently.
  19. tirekicker11

    tirekicker11 Senior Member

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    So because Seanergy introduced the owner to that particular yard Seanergy is to blame for the sinking of the Fox...:confused:
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Who among us hasn't had a refereal come back to bite us at one time or another. They'll certainly pay a price, but the blame goes to who does the deed.