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54' Bertram Soot on the Transom

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by CaptOz, Sep 16, 2010.

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  1. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    Hi,

    I have owned my 54' Bertram now for just over two years and I have not been able to figure our why I still have grey smoke in my wake trail which leads to soot build up in the transom during long runs.

    I have pretty much done everything except injectors. Engines now turn 2350 with a medium load.

    I am running a pair of 29 x 29 4 bladed props with my de-tuned 900hp 12V71TIs. Boat runs at 20Knts at 1900 rpm burining 60 gallons per hour.

    Regards,
    Ozzy
  2. NavigatorYacht

    NavigatorYacht New Member

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    just paint the transom black. Welcome to the life of running a Bertram
  3. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    Black transom

    Either that or I put in smoke stacks. I have seen a 54 Bertram with them in treasure cay, bahamas.
  4. Ormond Bert54

    Ormond Bert54 Senior Member

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    I'm looking for propeller options for my boat. I have the original

    28" x 28 pitch 3 blade NIBRAL Michigan Wheel props.

    our engines are very similar as I have the 12V71TI engines with 850 hp. How did you (or the former owner) decide on those props?

    What are you getting for speed at wide open throttle? I don't think I have seen more than 24 knots:-(

    Sorry I cannot help with your soot question ... I have not noticed a problem in that regard.
  5. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    When I purchased the boat the four bladed wheels were on there. They were 29 x 30 with a slight cup originally. After banging them up a bit, I decided to go with the spares in the lazarette. Those I imagine were the orginal 3 bladed 29 x 31. With a light load I was able to get 29 knots our of her and turn 2300 rpm but took a bit longer to get out of the hole.

    I did not decide these values and have no Idea how they came up with them. I do know that the engines were de-tuned from 930Hp to 870Hp(Crank). So, I think we now have the same horsepower

    If you are not getting any soot, then I guess I am still a little over propped with my four bladed props which I reduced to 29 x 29 and a little cup. My guess is that the props were set up for when the boat had the beefeer Injectors and the correction was never made.

    If you wanna chat anytime, give me a call at 786 247 7274.

    I still havent gotten the props just right, but I think if I go to 28 x 28 the problem will go away.

    Regards,
    Ozzy
  6. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    Gray smoke usually indicates unburned fuel. Suggest you do the "short-out" test on the injectors. I wouldn't replace them wholesale as there have been some issues in recent years with replacement injectors. I would just concentrate on any that sound worse than the rest.
  7. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    I did do the short out on the inside ones and didnt notice a problem.

    The grey smoke is worse the heavier the load is. I guess I can just bite the bullet and get 24 reman Injectors and see if that helps.

    Do I have to re-tune the rack if I am just swapping injectors out?

    Thanks,
    Ozzy
  8. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    I really don't think you should change out all the injectors. There have been some real reliability problems with reliabuilt injectors in recent years. Just test all 24. One or two that you haven't checked yet may be bad. If they ALL sound identical then either they are in like new condition or you don't know what you are listening for. I did one motor and 5 out of 6 were "good". We replaced the "bad" one and it sounded slightly better than the other 5. Is there any oil sheen on the water at idle?

    One other note; You said they turn 2350 with medium load? Hopefully at least 2300 fully loaded. By any chance are you checking the engines with the hatches open? You need to make sure the engines are getting enough air flow with the hatches closed.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I concur the reliabilt injectors are not good. I had a 12v71 TI rebuilt in 2008. All 12 injectors were reliabilt. At 150 hours and 3 months one split a tip and washed out a cylinder liner. All 12 were sent back to DD and tested. 5 out of 12 were deemed bad by DD and were replaced with more reliabilt injectors which have been ok.
  10. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I would say as a minimum you should check the height (Timing) when the injectors are installed.

    This is a pretty easy job and there is or there used to be a tool available from DD that is the exact height for your Injectors. If you can't get the tool set a digital vernier to the correct height and use that, it isn't as easy as the proper tool and you have to pay attention that you hold the vernier straight and the setting doesn't get bumped as you go.

    Years ago I was on a field job and had to make a tool out of stud bar and a couple of nuts to set 1.484" on a 3 53 as I had mislaid the correct tool, must have got it close because it started straight away and ran well.

    To this day that "missing" tool has travelled the world in my toolbox and I have never needed to use it again.
  11. geriksen

    geriksen Senior Member

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    I sure hear this story a lot. Would someone be better off just having their injectors reworked and tested at a local diesel injection shop then taking a chance on "reliabilt" injectors? At least they would be flow tested before you put them in....

    I recently had a stuck injector on one of my 892's and I had it repaired and tested instead of putting the reliabilt spare that was in the spare parts box in the boat. We did use the tool that came with the new injector though to set it.

    It it water that causes those tips to split? If it is, then it seems you can change injectors over and over and still have failures if you don't address the water problem first. Could the reliabilt inject be gettting the blame for some of that?

    Stuck or failed injectors seem to be the biggest issue with 2cyle detroits. Don't they wash down the cylinder and then you are putting kits in? Getting a handle on this seems central to getting long life out of Detroits.

    Are there any early warning signs Detroit owners should watch for?
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I had run the boat prior to the rebuild for 4 years. The fuel has never had ANY water in it, not even as much as a thimble full. Hatteras with fiberglass tanks in the keel. The reliabilt (rebuilt in mexico) injectors were just simply not rebuilt properly. 5 out of 12 were bad and they were 150 hours and 3 months old, and the rebuild was done by a well known DD dealer. The reliabilt cylinder head also was defective and had a cracked valve seat.

    Generally they say water in the fuel will split the tip. In this instance there was no water in the fuel and I am 100% certrain. A split tip or stuck open injector will wash the cylinder liner out and you are putting cylinder kits in if not caught quick enough.

    I think at this point in time, that you would be better off having a very reputable injector shop rebuild your own. The local DD dealer told me they used to rebuild all of their own injectors and rarely if ever had a problem with one of them. They also told me they've seen problems with a higher then normal amount of the reliabilt injectors.

    Warning signs may be, grey to black smoke coming out of one engine, higher then normal idle speed, fuel on the water (sheen) coming out of the exhaust.
  13. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    That's just plain ignorant.

    There's history behind those stacks, the owner was allergic to the two cycle fumes therefore the stacks that pipewelders elegantly integrated into the tower. The owner of that yacht was a long time Bertram customer who had a 54, 46 and I think a 42 all with the same exhaust setup.
  14. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    I'd like to thank everyone for their replies and experiences with their 12V71's injectors, etc.

    I am concluding that:

    1. I am still a bit over proped, but more importantly,
    2. That I have some faulty injectors.

    I do see a fuel sheen coming out of the exhaust now that I think about it.

    Does anyone know of a reputable Injector shop in the South Florida Area? RPM Diesel is the only one I know of and Im not sure if they are the best.

    Also, does any one know the Injector Hieght setting for the 12V71TI's and the part number for the Timing tool?

    Best Regards,
    Ozzy
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    The Injector Type and the height setting might be a question best answered by a DD Guy who knows what was done to de tune them.

    You might also find that the setup you have now is just overfuelling a bit for what you need.

    If you remove a valve cover and get a cylinder with the valves fully open , measuring the injector height should give you a good idea of what the setting currently is. Do it with a few cylinders and average the readings.

    Do you know what model injectors you have in there?
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    RPM does a good job rebuilding injectors. Everglades diesel in fort lauderdale behind lester's diner is good also. I would pull all of them and have them all checked. If you have several bad ones, you might have several right behind it.

    Be careful removing them if they haven't been removed in a long time as you might pull the tube in the cylinder head out too and caused coolant to go into a cylinder. Forget what the proper name is for the tube. You probably have 140 injectors to make 900hp (LPH) and it probably had 160LPH injectors before. I believe the injector height is in the DD book for a 12v71 and has the heights for each brand/size injector. However I run a boat with 12v71TIs that are Covingtons and it uses an injector height for a generator application and black smokes like crazy with any of the marine heights. Measure the height first as KIWI said, and then look it up in the book.
  17. CaptOz

    CaptOz Member

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    Ok. I will becareful. Probably best if I drain coolant. Its due to be serviced too.

    My engines were de-tuned after the last overhaul with the 870hp injectors instead of the 930hp ones. HP is at the Crank.. The Prop HP is 850 and 900 repectively.

    Thanks!
    Ozzy
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    They are normally called Injector Sleeves and sometimes Injector Tubes as far as I recall.
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Throttle delay

    Anybody looked at the throttle delay mech on the racks yet? There to keep the racks from over fueling on acceleration. It was just soot on da butt when this started. Now the injectors are getting pulled. There is a tool (DDC of course) for base adjustment. It helped my soot problem years ago with 650 hp, 12V71TIs.

    ,Ralph
  20. dockeffer

    dockeffer New Member

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    to clean up the soot. clean your intecooler or after cooler depending if it is a ta or ti. suspect it is a ti. Besure there are no exhaust leaks in engine room. Best way to check for this is start motors cold and have someone in engine room looking for puff of smoke behind turbo. Most 15 to 20 year old bertrams will develop small holes in the exhaust collectors behind the turbos. If no leaks then have someone reputable set the injector timing with a snapon guage. Also run the rack . Last thing is check if your turbos are old, it there is to much clearance between the hot housing and tip of turbine blades you will not build enough boost. On my 46 i got in the habit of putting new turbos on every five years, and I had the cleanest transom in the marina.