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2016 Sea Ray L590 vs 2016 CRANCHI 60 vs 2017 Schaefer 64

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by OceanDay, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. OceanDay

    OceanDay Member

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    Hello Folks,

    I am still looking for yacht but decided to go for new year model.

    This is what I am considering
    2016 Sea Ray L590 (with GYRO) vs 2016 Cracnhi 60 (with GYRO) vs 2017 Schaefer 64

    Please let me know what you think is best from the 3 options
  2. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    So, The least of 3 evils?
    The Schaefer. may be the nicer build but may have Volvo pods. If you don't have IPS issues, then this would be my first answer to your question.
    Is there a great Volvo shop in your base camp?
  3. OceanDay

    OceanDay Member

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    yes it has 2 Volvo IPS 950 but it is also missing the GYRO which is costly toy to put in
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Where is your home port and cruising grounds?
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I can only address one of the three. First, keep in mind I owned 3 Sea Rays when younger and was great friends with a former owner of a Sea Ray dealership. In fact, through that friendship, I actually got to sample both L650 and L590. I considered purchasing a 650 until finding out their history of issues. I never considered or would have considered a 590.

    In my opinion, the 590 is the most bastardized, idiotically designed and built, Sea Rays ever. Because of Zeus's limitations you have triple Zeus installations in it. On top of that you have the myriad issues Sea Ray had on the L Series with most having extremely long punch lists from finish issues, cabinetry, etc. to forcing electronics that weren't ready. Perhaps most of those have been addressed today on a 2016 but only if the owners were persistent. The boats I know that ultimately were fixed well, went around the dealer (MarineMax) and ended up at Sea Ray's facility.

    Performance at cruise is decent but acceleration is very poor. The boat is also loud for some unexplained reasons, but it's 79 decibels at cruise and 81 at WOT. This is with 593 hp Cummins engines.

    The interior has a lot of interesting gadgetry such as slide out wine and plate storage but in cabinets given to issues. The main deck feels ok but the lower deck with the three cabins feels more crowded than it should. All three cabins suffer but I'll just discuss the master. First the bath. The toilet is inches from the shower which is an oddly configured and corner packed unit. The sink is against the shower wall. There is another arrangement that seems little better. Then comes the big reveal. The bed is angled. Why? To create a huge space for an L shaped sofa. To get not just a sofa, but an L shaped with a large opening in front of it, you sacrifice everything else-closet, bath, shower, size of other rooms. Someone declared that sofa to be the most important feature of the boat, apparently.

    Understand too that the builder of the Sea Ray is "out of business." Sounds strange since we know Sea Ray is still in business. But the L Series set up is long gone so while Sea Ray isn't a discontinued brand, Sea Ray L Series most definitely is.

    Now, perhaps is one surveys fine and you like the layout, then fine. For me, just too many negatives.
  6. OceanDay

    OceanDay Member

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    Los Angeles... we have good shops for the Volvo's here from what I was told.
  7. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Of the 3, I feel the South American build quality may be better. However, my opinion here is based on other builds from Brazil and very little experience on the Schaefer lines.
    I do have experience on your other two choices.
    Never was a Fan of the L series. IMO, doomed on design papers and built anyway.
    Never been a Mut fan for sure. Design paper,, What's that. No such thing as a Mut schematic.

    Could you consider another mfg, say Hatteras?
    The Hatt M60 does not have those big drooping side windows but is a hell of a lot better built. IMO, looks better also.
    Factory support is leagues above the rest.

    Maybe even some Pac-Rim builds offer similar looking lines.
  8. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    I haven't looked closely at the Schaeffer line so I can't comment, but based on boarding a few Brazilian built boats such as Tarrab & Inace, I would consider other options.
  9. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    The OP's question was of 3 brands. I typed what I could.
    I did suggest looking at other brands.
    Sadly, I have never been on or in sight of an Inace.
    And Yes; I remember a cool looking (older) Tarrab from Argentina in Pompano. Reminded me of a jig-saw puzzle with missing pieces. I would still consider her a better boat than the two others to compare to, for the OP.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  10. OceanDay

    OceanDay Member

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    in this price range and year model only I see 2014 Azimut 64 and possibly, 2014 Sunseeker 63 MANHATTAN (higher priced) or 2014 Sunseeker Manhattan 55 which are 2-3 years older and not cheaper, I am looking for something that I will resale in 3-4 year and avoid big drop in the price
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    So, think to yourself, why are the others cheaper? I'm going to tell you something I learned long ago in business. The Market is smarter than most people think. The Buyers figure out value. If the market for a 2014 Sunseeker is equal to or greater than the boats you mentioned, then there's a reason for that. Also, with you wanting to resell, that same market opinion will be in play in three to four years. You look at two boats where one has higher value today, it's likely to have higher value in three years too.

    Don't think you're going to be the one to discover a boat that is undervalued by the market but equal in quality and performance to the others. You're not going to be smarter than everyone else.

    When I started years ago, I learned this. Our merchandisers would take a large group of very similar items and sell them for the same price. Now picture, the margins were perhaps 40%-46%. They then projected margins for the season would be 43%. They would come in around 41.5% because the low margin items, those with higher costs but at the same selling price, would outsell the others. It was amazing how well the consumers figured it out. The consumer has figured out the Sunseekers you mention are worth more than the three boats you mentioned earlier. So if you buy one of the others, don't think three or four years from now it will be close in market value to the Sunseeker. It just won't be.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    WOW
    I agree completely.
    Please study well these last two text.
  13. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Careful there.
    I agree with your reasoning in general, but depending on what a buyer wants, the most logical choice might well be the cheaper boat.

    OceanDay is thinking to "resale in 3-4 year and avoid big drop in the price".
    Now, let's say he can spend 100 for a Sunseeker which in 3-4 years the market will value 80.
    Or he can buy a cheaper (usually due mostly to brand/image reasons rather than actual technical content, but let's leave this aside - if we should only evaluate technical components, all street painters should fetch the same prices as Basquiat for their works) boat for 70, which in 3-4 years the market will value 56.
    Your reasoning still stands perfectly, because the S/skr value in 3-4 years will still be higher.
    BUT, her price drop in absolute terms will be 20, vs. 14 of the cheaper boat.

    Mind, some folks envisage that the higher price boat will also suffer a lower PERCENTAGE of depreciation.
    But while this is a possibility, in my experience it's rather rare in practice.
    At least, nowhere near as frequent to the point of counting on that for any economic calculation.
    In fact, also the exact opposite can and does happen.

    Bottom line, my personal conclusion and suggestion to anyone looking at pleasure boats with an economic approach has always been very simple:
    Forget it. As the old saying goes, boats are just a way to throw money into a hole in the water.
    So, in OceanDay boots, I wouldn't lose my sleep over the model choice, particularly for a boat that isn't meant as a keeper.
    What do YOU think is the best option? This is the only question that really matters.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    mapism
    Do you really think a Sunseeker will loose that much and a Mut will retain that much in another 3 years?
    Kind of like arguing the residue values at the start of a car lease, Camaro vs Vega.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The Sunseeker by FAR is a much better built boat and much better sea boat than all 3 and by far will hold resale much better. You want best resale, go for a 2009-2014 Hatteras 60' MY, you can get in one at current prices and get out of it in 3-4 years for the same price you paid. In 2009, a new 60' MY sold for $1.9 million, what does a 2009 sell for today? It's the best quality motor yacht in your size range, bar none.

    Or, do you want some off brand boat that nobody wants, nobody will buy, no factory support, and performs horribly but buy it because it's cheap??? I ran a 59' L just the other day, it's the 13th one I've run as I used to run yachts FOR Sea Ray.....I wouldn't touch one of those.......3 pods, horrible performance 21-22 knots.....boat is too heavy for the hull and FB feels like it's going to roll over when you make a hard turn at idle speed in calm water, drinks a lot of fuel......interior is like a dungeon with black everywhere, uggghhh. Cranchi's are junk, and nothing out of Brazil that i've seen was built worth a darn.
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  16. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Absolutely. Not only I "think", but I did witness that, on a regular basis.

    Just think about it: the reasoning of olderboater about the market being smarter than most people think is solid, and ALWAYS applies.
    Consequently, some boats are already more expensive when new.
    But it's not like they won't depreciate at all: they just stay more expensive also on the used market, through their whole life span.

    The point is, are you looking at the "expensive vs. cheap" boat in terms of absolute or of differential value?
    If I were in the market for a boat knowing in advance that I would keep her for just a few years (which NEVER happened, mind - but that's me), I definitely would consider the cheaper alternative.

    That aside, I also maintain that in many cases the market is NOT really smarter, in its evaluation of a boat inherent value.
    If it were so smart, there wouldn't be around several brands that most of us would agree that are overrated.
    In other words, boats "undervalued by the market but equal in quality and performance to the others" DO exist, and in this respect I disagree with Olderboater.
    But his reasoning still stands, anyway: we must deal with the market as it is, whatever its drivers.
    So, this hypothetical "better but undervalued" boat, obviously will continue to be undervalued also in the future, which means that anyone hoping to outsmart the market and make a profit upon resale will be disappointed.
    OTOH, it's an approach that can make sense when you are thinking to keep the boat for a substantial, possibly even undetermined, time span. Which is what I always did, but again, that's me.
  17. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    That's your opinion.
    Mine is that if I should name the 5 most overrated brands, S/skr would certainly deserve a place in such short list, and for many reasons.
    Though they probably wouldn't make it to the top 3, so no medal for them, I'm afraid. :D

    But this is something we already discussed in the past, and you can save yourself the effort of asking me to post more details about that, as you already did, because I couldn't care less about fingerpointing at S/skr faults in a forum.
    I did have an exchange of PMs with olderboater back then, because he had a genuine interest in understanding some technicalities, and I explained him my views as accurately as I could.
    But forum quarrels just aren't my cup of tea. :)
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The Sunseeker is by far a much better built boat than the 59' Searay, 60' Cranchi and Schaeffer 64'. Sunseekers are a great sea boat (for a planing MY) and perform very well. They're built well without any structural issues on any of the models throughout the years. They are NOT a Hatteras by any means as far as quality goes, good but not great. They don't have the best gelcoat (it shines very well but has a tendancy to develop hairline cracks here and there). They suffer from the typical Euro thin teak decks that only last 7 years or so. Everything is generally well accessible on them for maintenance. They generally use good equipment throughout the build. Of ALL of the models the OP has mentioned being interested in, only the 64' Hatteras and possibly the Fleming are a better built boat than the Sunseeker.

    You keep toting Azimut. I know of several very late model 60'-70' Azimuts with cracked fuel tanks (unheard of with any other builder), a few with hull delamination. Water leaks from the salon overhead into the salon is very common. A friend of mine ran a 2017 66' and had 3 different water leaks into the salon level of the yacht at the same time from 3 different places! The headliners fall down in 3-5' seas all over the place inside the boat. The wall coverings don't last as they're fabric glued to foam. Most models pound in a very moderate sea. And, their electrical is pure garbage. The dealer representation in the U.S. is very poor, and for the amount of boats they have over here, one would THINK they'd stock some of the more popular parts in the U.S., but they don't. The problem with Azimut, is they never fix their problem areas. How hard is it to secure the ceiling panels better? What would that really cost in each build, $100??? These are the reasons I never promote them.

    Mapism, I really respect your knowledge and have learned a lot from you. But with all due respect, I run 150 different yachts a year and usually do 15,000 NM's each and every year of deliveries on all different yachts. I've run, in the ocean, a lot of models, from most of the builders. Ride and quality are most important. Doesn't matter how good the layout is, if ceiling panels are falling on your head in the ocean and the boat beats you to death getting there (for example).
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  19. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Pardon?
    I said in not unclear terms, and more than once, that I never bought one, and never will.
    Is that toting a brand, in your vocabulary?

    What I always said is that they are the absolute leader in this industry, they have been for years, and more than likely they will consolidate this position even further in the near future. All of which is NOT my opinion by any stretch of imagination, but a very simple fact, that Hatteras and Sunseeker, as well as many others, can only dream of.
    And this being a fact, it doesn't matter one iota what you, me, and several other forumites think of their boats.

    Don't forget the previous educating post from olderboat: the market is BY DEFINITION always right, also when we know it's wrong.
    And what the market is telling us (with its money!) is that Azimut builds the best boats of the planet, period.
    Now, I appreciate that your view of what "best" means is different, as well as is mine.
    But, my dear Captain, our opinion is totally irrelevant, because we are NOT the market.
    This is something we can only deal with, whether we like it or not, and regardless of how many miles we have under our belts. :)
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Well Then;
    That makes Bayliners the real best boat of the planet. :D:D:D