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1995 Ocean 66 hull construction question

Discussion in 'Ocean Yacht' started by GJackson, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    Good morning. First time poster here!

    I just completed a pre-purchase inspection on a 1995 Ocean 66. I am sorting through the list of issues to see if I should move forward or not on this boat.

    One issue is: There is a partial bulkhead in the engine room just aft of the transmissions. A previous owner appears to have cut away from the top of the bulkhead to make clearance for the exhaust hoses. Maybe the factory did this, I am not certain. Anyways, it exposed the bulkhead materials to the elements. The materials used by Ocean Yachts in this bulkhead appears to be alternating layers of foam and balsa encapsulated on both sides by fiberglass. Termites have settled into the starboard bulkhead. The surveyor says he can detect hallow space all the way back to the hull side but is unable to go further because the fuel tank is in the way. The broker states his Ocean Yachts expert said the hull sides have absolutely no balsa in the core, only foam, so the issue needs attention but is not a major issue. Anybody know for sure what is inside the hull above the waterline?

    Any thoughts on this bulkhead, its construction, termite issues, and the risk termites are in the hull sides?

    Your feedback is much appreciated. Thank you.

    Gordon
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Would they let you pay someone to pull a small thru hull on the hull side near that area and re-install it to see what material the coring is? I managed/maintained a 1987 63' Ocean for decades until 2009 or so when the owner sold it and we never had any coring issues on the boat. But I don't know what kind it had, if any.
  3. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    Thank you. Easiest inspection point is under the engine room vent openings. I had already floated the idea of removing the vent grill and taking .25 inches of material off in an area to verify core and inspect for termite penetration.
  4. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    I ended up walking away from this boat. Termites + MAN-grenades (no 2 year service for the past 8 years and iron in the engine oil on starboard engine...OMG big $$$) + a long list of inop equipment and deferred maintenance. A shame to see an otherwise beautiful boat in such poor condition. From the dock it looks beautiful! You would almost have to get the boat for free to make all the repairs and not get upside down on the deal.
  5. bahamadreamin

    bahamadreamin New Member

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    Where was this boat located & boats name. What was said about the termite issue?
  6. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    Ocean Oasis. Palm Beach area. Light yellow hull. Still on the market one year later! Asking price is still way up there given its issues. Maybe the owner did some repairs? Maybe owner is open now to a more realistic offer???

    I never got to the bottom of the issues. I paid almost $5k for the surveys and haul out...etc. I added up the cost of the deferred maintenance + the inop equipment + a factor for the risks of the termite infestation and the risks presented by very high iron in the starboard MAN diesel oil + one generator inop + one trans with metal shavings in the strainer +++...I gave up. I floated a price that would leave me at around market value ($300k) once the boat was repaired and the owner said "no way". He was in denial about the costs to get that boat into a nice condition. The "major" survey issues (over $5,000 per item to remedy) were a very lengthy list and most pointed towards a pattern of little or no maintenance / repairs for many years...and some prior work done not very well (the owner surely knew about that!). Also...the boat was misrepresented by the seller and the broker...which gives a bad vibe. I find it very hard to believe they had no idea about the condition of the boat. I can see the seller trying to pull a fast one...but the broker should know better! The boating community is too small to play games like that. I did wonder about their LEGAL obligation to disclose these issues to other buyers now that they are fully aware of them??? I ran away ...and a few months later purchased a different boat.

    The boat was pretty...but beauty was skin deep!
  7. bahamadreamin

    bahamadreamin New Member

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    Thanks so much for your candid and thorough reply, I appreciate it a ton. I was afraid you were referring to the boat I was looking at, which you are. I noticed it was on & off & on market again. I figured something fell apart or got exposed. You are absolutely right, these issues need more disclosure by the brokers as they are revealed and made aware of, and then stated what has been corrected and repaired. Geez, talk about buyer beware? The new listing does not reference a single issue. Who was the Broker on your deal, might as well give him some exposure? It also just doesn't seem right for the buyer to dole out 5k and end up with nothing. These surveys should be split? BTW sounds like you found a great surveyor, I would like his contact nfo. Also just curious what did you end up buying? Thanks again for all of your replies!!
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've found that over the years that most Ocean owners didn't maintain much. They generally waited until something broke before fixing it.
  9. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    I would advise any interested buyer to insist on two things from this seller: First, a report from a qualified MAN service dealer that the root cause of the extremely high levels of iron in the starboard diesel was identified and properly repaired and all service on both diesels was caught up (8 years behind on the 2 year service intervals which means the cooling system gaskets, hoses, clamps...are all at high risk of failure...and there was already evidence of this). Second, a boatyard receipt and photos documenting the extermination of the termites and the proper repair of the stringer. From a structural perspective it likely requires complete removal of the stringer remains and replace with new plus reinforcement of the stringer / hull attach points. This would require at a minimum, fuel tank removal to get into the hull / stringer attach points on both sides of the vessel. Also, the results of an investigation into the likelihood the termites penetrated the hull and the subsequent hull repair. My fear is that the seller would cap off the damage with fiberglass mat and slop some white bilge paint over it and a buyer would know nothing about the underlying damage until there were hull cracks appearing from a failed stringer! ...or worse a hull failure. If the boat did not require that massive stringer directly behind the diesel engines, Ocean Yachts would not have put it there!!! To me, both of these items should be a pre-condition before even looking at this boat. The remainder of the items (a very long list) should be negotiable and reflected in the purchase price. The list of what works is much shorter than the list of what is inop or needs immediate service! FYI, there was also bottom damage and prop issues and shaft issues and bearing issues. Once uncovered during the survey, the seller admitted that they had a grounding in the Bahamas and they had done a repair and left the bottom job for the buyer to take care of! ...disclosed only because surveyor notice the prop, bearing, shaft and fiberglass issues! This failure to disclose issues shakes your confidence in anything the seller says. In the world of real estate he could be sued. I have no idea what the legal obligation to disclose issues on a boat are...other than the moral / ethical element.
  10. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    Our new boat is actually a brand new boat. Awaiting delivery.

    I am an engineer, so of course I built a spreadsheet and developed selection criteria and assigned a score to each boat we looked at. We placed the highest weight on elements of boating we enjoyed most + the "must haves" to meet family criteria.

    For instance, a big part of boating for us is the social experience / sun downers at the dock. Given this, we rated the stern of each boat a score on how well it accommodated this element of boating. MY scored lowest. CPMY did better. Euro Transoms scored higher yet and Sport Fish boats with large, dock level cockpits scored the highest.

    Similarly, we enjoy fair weather fishing (not tournament fishing). So applied the same scoring approach to that element.

    Accommodations, operating costs, safety, seaworthiness, initial investment, depreciation, aesthetics, etc. were all assigned a score and a weight.

    We plugged each boat alternative into this spreadsheet.

    The Ocean Yachts 66 was, at the time, our highest scoring vessel. Ocean Oasis fell out due to the very poor survey. It was not even close once the survey was factored in. If the broker and seller were honest, the survey would never have happened.

    For fun we plugged in many different styles of boats. We were surprised a few times. It was suggested we look at a power cat. We plugged it into our criteria and were very surprised. It scored by far the highest of all boats. It was amazing. I used to comment in the marina how bad some of the cats looked..."who would ever buy one of those!!!"

    Well, if you do an objective analysis, the cats are a pretty amazing "package". Every boat is a compromise, the cats just strike an overall higher score on the compromises than the mono hulls. The resulting boat we chose is a Leopard 51PC. Hopefully our analysis did not lead us astray! If interested, I can comment more later or in a different thread.
  11. bliss

    bliss Senior Member

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    Fifteen minutes of surfing the web and I came away with some impressions. They could be right or wrong. It looks like a few brokers cancelled their listing ads on this boat. Maybe it sold or ??? Re the currant listing info the boat has had a great deal of work done since the survey - or not!. I'll stop there.
  12. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    I see the beautiful pics of this boat in the listings...but look closely and you can see some of the issues...I kicked myself afterwards. Those fridges show 69F in the photos because that is all they could do during the survey! 2 x $1400 right there + install and disposal, etc. The washer and dryer knobs missing...because they are inop! Another $1,000 plus install and trim carpentry. The bridge counter tops and wood floors had water stains and issues due to corroded window frames that leaked...look closely and you can see some. Why didn't I see these things? I did ask for a list of inop equipment before deciding to proceed with the survey and none of these issues were identified. Instead, broker insisted all equipment was in good operating condition except the radar that was removed for repair...never heard about that again. Radar was missing for the survey.

    The owner insisted generators were recently rebuilt. The primary generator was throwing sparks and heavy black smoke during sea trial and did not produce power so it was immediately shut down by the mechanics for fear of starting a fire in the bilge! The owner could not produce any receipts showing it was ever rebuilt. The smaller generator, seller had receipts that the gen head was repaired but the engine was not touched and was in desperate need of new belts, hoses, etc. No rebuild...yet the listing today says rebuilt generators. Unless things changed over the past year...that claim is highly suspect! The list like this just went on and on and on during the survey. Around 200 deficiencies identified...at least two dozen were serious, affecting safety, seaworthiness, or very high $$$.

    There were some things we (surveyor and I) could not understand during the survey like mysterious pools of water in the forward bilge and some of the electrical and plumbing that did not work. We cut our losses and gave up.

    Although beautiful, this boat is either a "dock queen" or a "project boat". To prepare to go cruising with family and friends would take months of effort and some very big $$$.

    I was sad and disappointed after the experience. Such high expectations followed by such a poor survey. I am a realist and understand what it takes to maintain a boat of this size and complexity. I was prepared for 30 to 50 issues, the most serious of which we would adjust in the purchase price. Not prepared for what happened.

    I think the seller was in way over his head and did not really understand what it takes to keep a boat of this size and complexity ship-shape. His view of the condition of the boat was not based on reality.
  13. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Not at all uncommon, unfortunately. It's not always a case of the seller hiding things from the buyer ...sometimes they just don't know much about their boat. Even so, while a seller has no duty to disclose known deficiencies the Florida broker does.
  14. GJackson

    GJackson New Member

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    Yes, frequently a topic of conversation at the dock as we solve all the problems of the world with a stiff drink in hand! Amazing how smart we all are after a few!

    Consensus seems to be if you buy a used power boat (40' to 60') there is a "lump" of expenses to get it all caught up with deferred maintenance and updated the way you like...then an annual $25k to $35k of "stuff" even with the boat owner doing a bunch of DIY projects. Bottom cleaning and/or bottom paint, zincs, engine service, generator service, detailing, replacing corroded items, keeping up with equipment failures as they occur, window and hatch leaks, upholstery, canvas, isinglass and electronics updates, appliance failures, bilge pump issues, toilet issues, tank issues, seals, bearings, etc. Maybe you get by with $20k one year but then the next years seems to be $30k or more.

    Boat owners that are frugal and get behind on these annual items either have huge bills in 3 to 5 years... or the boat just deteriorates to a point of significant loss in value...or both.

    This Ocean 66 just seems to have descended down this deferred maintenance curve yet the owner doesn't recognize it and wants top dollar on the resale market, feeling justified because the exterior is "pretty". I feel badly for the boat. It needs a new owner and an injection of cash and someone with the time to sort it all out.

    The worst thing for this boat is a new buyer caught up by the cosmetic exterior, over pays for the boat and does not have the deep pockets or understanding to delve into all the issues and sort it out.