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1988 22M Cantieri di Pisa for trans-Atlantic

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by tuvix, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    You floated a question that was to be polite, wide-eyed and innocent. You didn't get the the answer you were looking for obviously. The overall gist of the replies are caution and concern that it's the wrong boat for your intended use, which you have interpreted as hate. What do you want from this forum?
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Teh North Atlantic is no place for an aging med cruiser.
  3. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Best possible advice would be to have the boat shipped over the pond on a yacht transport dock vessel and limit yourself to the enjoyable parts of the journey.
  4. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    There is no "hate" in any of the responses that I can see. Just consider that the lives you are putting at risk are also the people who will be called out to rescue you from your "adventure" when it goes awry.

    Your yacht may be in prime condition, but it is not a passagemaker or designed for an Atlantic crossing, so it will not take much for the condition onboard to deteriorate very quickly!

    Some of the most challenging and dangerous times I and many more experienced people on this forum have had, were close to shore! Many wrecks are found within 100nm of shore. Often it has been out at sea that you can relax more than close to shore.
  5. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Some of this is the kind of additional information that would have been useful in your first post. The bottom-line response would still likely be the same, but folks here wouldn't have had to guess at so many of the blanks.

    Your saying the boat would be given to you, no cost? If so, that would perhaps make it affordable to ship the boat over the dicey-est part? Resume your cruise on this side of the Atlantic?

    -Chris
  6. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Don't forget that one pricey piece of your refit will be your electrical system when that boat comes over.
  7. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Well, he could install a parallel electrical system for the US and keep the domestic equipment to the existing european standard. Should be doable at reasonable costs.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Just for your help since you seem not to have much knowledge in this, I did a little budget for you assuming 3 years and 15,000 nm to get it home and assuming you averaged 12 knots.

    Fuel $130,000
    Oil and other fluids $4,000
    Rebuild engines $60,000
    Service on Engines $35,000
    Service and rebuild on generator $25,000
    Bottom, deck and interior maintenance $40,000
    Dockage assuming 1 in 3 nights $43,000
    Navigation and communications assuming minimum $15,000
    Insurance, Mail, etc. $10,000
    This assumes you would be making no trips home and assumes you hire no crew.

    Total $352,000

    Could be a great trip, but do not think of it as a free boat. Oh and you could ship it probably for $100,000 but then paying $100,000 for shipping a boat to the PNW when you could buy a better one for that price there makes little financial sense either.

    Of course all the above clearly hypothetical and largely irrelevant since the odds of you ever single handing that boat all the way home on that trip are extremely low.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  9. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    I had similar thoughts ...figured the total miles a little higher and at 2 gal per mile the fuel cost alone would eat up most of the $200k budget.
  10. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I have typed his route into a nav computer and he came up with app. 17.500 NM (very friendly calculated). Some of the depicted legs are beyond the theoretical range of this boat, even at 12 kts but could be done with additional bladder tanks. The fuel costs will be higher due to more distance and much higher diesel prices for pleasure boats in Europe, especially in France, GB, Island and Greenland. The trip is so time consuming, it would for sure require a winter storage somewhere in Island or Greenland. Storage of this wooden boat during the arctic winter in any other place than a heated shed would end this trip right there ($$$$$).

    Even some people calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond, it is not the navigational area for an 22 Meter, 27 year old, wooden planning pleasure boat. IMO, this boat will not survive this minimum 3 year long almost half way around the globe trip, if at all, without major damage and wear and tear beyond any reasonable repair. And I doubt, the officials in Scotland or Island will let you leave the harbour, when getting informed about your next destination. They do not want to spend so much money on SAR actions.

    A yacht transport with DYT from southern Italy or even Gibraltar to the PNW will be far more expensive than 100 K $. It will exceed the value of the boat several times. Only crossing the the Ocean with DYT and the rest of the trip on its own keel, will leave so much distance and running time on the boat, it will make it a complete write-off at its final destination. It is just not a passage maker or circumnavigator.

    My personal advice, as running on its own keel and yacht transport via DYT type transport do not make sense for this boat and your budget, go to the "dark side of live", the commercial freight shipping business :)

    First step, buy two of those things (40 ft flat base (rack) container), old and beaten but good enough for this purpose for less than 2 K $ each. Most bigger container harbours in the world have a dealer for used containers in their vicinity.

    platform-container.jpg
    Second step, have a local metal shop weld some supports on to those flat racks and turn them into a cradle. And buy some descent tie down straps and some canvas. Some carries will even provide them.

    Have your mentor teach you driving this boat around on the beautiful Amalfi coast and enjoy your time while asking for a quote for shipping of two flat racks with outsized cargo and a weight of max. 80 metric tons on top from, lets say from Neapel or Catania to Seattle via the Panama Canal.

    I know of some scheduled PANAMAX sized box carriers going from the Med via the Canary Islands and the Panama Canal to several ports of call on the west coast of the US of A up to Seattle.

    If the box carrier is equipped with loading gear and the flat racks are placed on top of the stacks, the carrier will charge you most likely only the shipping costs of two 40 ft boxes. If placed between boxes (for wind protection) most likely, maximum the shipping costs of six 40 ft boxes.

    Being slightly involved in this business :p, I assume, the complete transport of this woody to Seattle could be done for less than 20 K $ including the purchase and modification of of those two flat racks and would not take more than 5 to 6 weeks. It just requires some preparations and timing from your side, as the completed flat racks have to be available on the quay and the boat has to be on Stby in water on the other side of the ship. Timing is paramount, as a scheduled box carrier will not wait for your boat.

    Just my 2 (Euro) Cents
  11. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    17,000 nm, single handed. This can't be a real inquiry?
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    It's a dream. They're what fuel our whole industry. Most don't get realized, but they lead to other adventures.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Actually as HTM said 17,500 nm is very conservative. In the real world you're probably talking 19,000 or more. I based my calculations on 20,000. We seldom take the shortest route. I always figure you could add 10%, maybe even more as you're in and out of ports. Late June we went from Fort Lauderdale to NYC. About 1080 nm straight. For us, 1280 nm.
  14. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Yes very conservative. I did not figure entering and leaving safe harbours and reaching specific pump stations. And my range calculation did not include any sea margins and other reserves. Especially in Greenland and Newfoundland, it may take a few additional miles up and down the Fjords to reach the harbour and its pump station. Not every Inuit village on the coast is capable of refueling a boat with 1500 Gal of diesel or more. Circumstances can make this trip easily 20.000 NM long.

    To sum up those 53 posts, taking this route with this boat on its own keel is not a good idea at all, period. Neither the boat nor its engines will survive this route. This would be a great adventure with a sturdy Nordhavn but not with a wooden Med born sun bathing platform.

    And if the OB would be unable to accept my offer of transporting his boat on one of our ships for such a low freight rate, I am out of ideas. But prior leaving the coast of Scotland, if he ever reaches that point, he should sign a NO SAR ACTION REQUIRED (and wanted !) paper to the local authorities.

    Committing suicide is not a crime but deliberately endanger the life of others is!

    Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse. Sed sine vita non navigamus!
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Then another 20 to 75K$ converting everything to 60htz.
    Charter a boat making the crossing if you want a thrill.
    Purchase a in North America and cruise the canal and left coast home.
    Send 1/2 the savings to me.
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    The only way a boat like this (or any other light weather boat) stand a chance to make it across on its own bottom would be from east to west on the southern route between the canaries and the carib running slow (below hull speed) possibly on one engine at a time and most likely with additional tanks...

    What is it... About 2500nm from the canaries to the carib? You should be able to get it down to just under 10gph at 8 kts so if you can extend tankage to 3000 gallons, it may be feasible. Att least the weather will be good if you pick the right time, with smooth seas.

    But really the North Atlantic? No way...
  17. RER

    RER Senior Member

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  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Looks like a nice ride.

    Was a first to see this though: She is constructed double
    plated and foam filled so she is very quiet and has no trapped air spaces for
    moisture to form oxidation.

    Not sure about that arrgt myself.
  19. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    I like the dance floor on the bridge deck for the Bimbos.....
  20. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    The North Atlantic is definitely not the navigational area for light weather boats.

    When my father forced me to work up the ladder in our family business and gave me my first command of one of our coasters, I had to navigate in this area. After my first tour I knew, why the Navy hated (and still does) Scapa Flow, the outer Hebrides, the Färöer Islands and most of all the Denmark Street. And coastal hopping along the south coast of Greenland is no fun either. High seastates, step waves, strong winds, heavy rain and alternatively heavy fog or all together plus drifting ice floe (south of Greenland) even during summer. The most unfriendly environment and one of the most remote landscapes a pleasure boater may encounter.

    I remember delivering construction material for an airfield to Akureyri on the end of the Eyjafjord at the north coast of Island during late August. All of the above mentioned bad weather and not a single day without rain and without those modern electronics like GPS, Nav Plotter or Echosounder on analog RADAR navigation only. And this was a 230 ft steel cargo vessel.

    You will need a very sturdy, seaworthy and well equipped boat with a descent range for that area. And I would rather go that route west to east only. And westbound the more southern routes via Madeira and Bermuda or via the Canary Islands towards St. Lucia. But I doubt, one would be able to extend the range of this boat to 2500 or 3000 NM even with additional bladder tanks.