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1985 46┬┤Bertram Sportfish - Electronics/Display Choices

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by Navatech, Apr 11, 2013.

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  1. Navatech

    Navatech New Member

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    I respect your views even if I don't agree with them. And I apologize for not considering your views as being above argument :)

    However, I gather that you don't understand what I want to do. At this time I do NOT want to re-engine the boat. There's still a few years (at my usage profile) of life in the existing power plant. The projected fuel savings that I would realize from re-engining are nowhere near the 10,000 US$ range over the next 3 years. Resale value would be an issue MAYBE in double that time though triple that time seems more realistic to me.

    You might have had a point if my usage profile were different (e.g. a boat that's being used several days a week for charters or, even a boat that's used 2 weekends out of every month and doing at least 100-150 miles each time) but that's not the case.

    Having done IT consulting professionally I understand where you would be miffed when it seems that I'm ignoring your, no doubt, experienced if not professional advice. Having said that, and possibly due to my own fault, your understanding of my "needs & wants" (the very basis for effective consulting) is quite lacking. Your valued advice is based on assumptions that are simply put totally wrong. For example, CONSIDERING changing the electric system is NOT the same thing as WANTING to do so. Certainly not doing it in the immediate future. Ditto for the re-engining.

    Rome wasn't built in one day and my boat (as most if not all boats) will be a continuing project. I'm quite certain that once I'll be faced between the choice of rebuilding vs re-engining the power plant I will chose the latter. That choice will necessitate several other major changes (e.g. moving to a 24 volt system). Until that time I chose to do only incremental changes. And, until that time I would like to get the most of what I have (subject to my needs).

    So, for example, I currently do not have a dedicated house bank (of batteries) and I'm not going to put one in. I don't need it for my usage profile. However, if my converter will go south I will not spend 5,000 US$ on a new 32 volt unit. What I will do is go for a 24 volt unit and a new house bank. I realize that I would have to change the whole house system but that will eventually become necessary in the future (re-engining time) anyway.
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I get exactly what you're saying. But what you want and what you want to do is completely illogical. None of your wants, are your needs. Your needs are entirely different than your wants. Just by making the statement that you can watch the engine room gauges if the main gauges go out, who is going to do that in a 46' engine room, underway, at cruise? Your wants will have you chasing electronics gremlins everytime you use the boat. Especially with Raymarine stuff......You cannot run a Raymarine unit a single day without getting error messages and having to shut the unit down and restart it at least once.....and that's without it running any other non-raymarine stuff attached to it.

    Where on earth do you plan on even mounting 2-3 LCD displays as well as 2 c-140 Raymarines on your dashboard? It's quite obvious that you're actual boating experience is quite limited. But on a boat you use your displays as a guide and the majority of the time you are looking at the water in front of you to make sure you're not running something or someone over. Not to mention it's a 46' boat. It is not an airplane like you are comparing it to, where you don't even have to look out of the front windows unless you're taking off or landing, nor is it run as one.

    If you ask 90% of the Captains on here, they're glancing at only 2 things while they're running a boat. Either a chartplotter and radar, or a chartplotter and depthfinder, and simply scanning the gauges depending on what type of water they're in. That's 10% of every minute or less. The other 90%+ of every minute you are looking in front of you. If you mount them on the dash above the helm gauges, you will not be able to see foward of the bow while seated and operating the boat. You already stated you want to keep the chart table, so what is left? Seated is where you will be 95% of the time, when running the boat in open water.

    It sounds like you have already made up your mind on what you are going to do before even asking us. However, if you had even an instance of knowledge on yachting, besides reading magazines and the internet. You wouldn't ask if anyone makes color LCD displays. Everyone and their brother knows that VEI is a popular one and there are a few others......Even Raymarine, which you seem such an expert about, makes a few color, waterproof, lcd displays that work fine.

    Quite frankly, I can safely run your boat anywhere in the world it is capable of making it to, with nothing more than a compass, standard Garmin GPS76 handheld GPS, digital depth readout, and paper charts and the engine gauges working. I've done it more times than I can count. The reason nobody does what you want to do on boats your size is because it does not work, just like every poster here is telling you. The equipment does not last, there is no space to mount all of it and still see where you're going, and it's a lot of clutter and money spent on nothing you need. Just about every Captain on here, would be 100% perfect with the 2 C140 Raymarines if they have the radar and fishfinder function. You can even run camera's and engine gauges off of them with the proper black boxes.

    Every single poster on here has re-iterated the same thing I have. Keep it simple, You may only have room for 1 LED screen, While it's done on much larger boats it's not on your size. Look at Kiwi's post, Pascal's, NYCAP's, and others. All of us have spent more time sitting on the head of a boat, than you have on one!

    Generally on a boat your size, you don't have a dedicated house bank as their is no room for it and for weight reasons. Generally you'll have house+1 engine, the other engine on it's own bank, and the generator on a 12 volt battery......:rolleyes:


  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A voltage problem, a ground problem, a bad connection, a chafed wire, a bad terminal block, line noise, a setting problem, a conflict between 2 different units, and the list goes on and on :)
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It's both. If it was the factory Raymarine/Furuno/etc etc. shielded transducer cable going straight to the back of a C140 or Navnet, it most likely wouldn't have an issue. Also, with the black box stuff, you have a lot more wiring, a lot more connections, a lot more routing of wiring, and quite simply a lot more issues and problems that could arise.
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    We ve all seen new owners spending well into the 5 figures on electonics immediately after buyin a boat. Installers love them...

    My advice is to use the boat for a while to see how they are going to use it and then install what they really need.

    And if they need to bring the boat home first an ipad will do

    And I thought I was the only one always having ray gear throw errors at me :)
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Your maximum number of points have been achieved!!!!! LOLOLOL

    Nope, I don't care if they're E series, C series, etc. It doesn't matter. In a full day I'll always have to shut them down once and reboot because they froze or the depth module froze, and well always get an error message, or two, or three.....everyday.......
  7. Navatech

    Navatech New Member

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    You can roll your eyes as much as you want but you're NOT getting what I'm saying. You seem intent to:

    1. Take this personally.
    2. Make faulty assumptions.
    3. Steamroll your opinion.
    4. Get personal.

    I therefore politely suggest that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    P.S. I'm not sure how your Raymarine equipment was installed/used but mine, FWIW, do not behave like yours.
  8. Navatech

    Navatech New Member

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    Not that hard to do if your boat had most everything missing or nonfunctional. A simple MFD and radar set (even a domed one) will easily go over that number. Certainly with installation costs.

    CORRECTION, I had my 4 & 5 figures mixed up. :eek:

    Having said that, I do believe that people who rip out existing functional stuff for no other reason then to put in the latest and greatest (allegedly) have more money then brains.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    That is perfectly fine. I'm not taking anything personally and quite honestly I don't care what you do with your boat. BUT, if you read everyone else's posts. Every single poster is telling you the same thing.....K.I.S.S. to basically keep it simple and you are intent on ignoring everyone's recommendations, all of whom have a lot more knowledge in every aspect.


  10. Ormond Bert54

    Ormond Bert54 Senior Member

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    When I bought my Bertram 54 it had the large Raymarine Open Array proudly displayed on top ... think the system was an E120 or something like that. New enough .. had the sounder, camera etc. We went out and it started beeping at me ... couldn't get it to stop ... called the company and they had no clue about anything so I made one of the smartest decisions I have made with my boat. Sold that crap for $2400 and bought new Furuno gear. Problems solved. Those problems anyway:)

    The Furuno Navnet 3 with Open Array is perfectly at home on the 28 Bertram or the 54. I did get the much nicer transducer on the 54 as well as the more powerful radar.

    I use a portable in the Salon so those folks know where we are.

    You guys have probably seen photos of the Garmin G1000 that is available on even the smaller general aviation airplanes running 180 hp 4 cylinder engines. The system is totally integrated. Radios, engine gauges and alarms, autopilot, airspeed, satellite radar, onboard radar, traffic avoidance, terrain warnings etc. This is one of two screens large displays in a typical G1000 installation and just one of the many pages of data available. It's just far more advanced that what is currently offered on the sub multi million dollar marine market. Not sure why. Adding to the complexity of the marine market are the many different engine choices. This could have something to do with it.

    Mike

    Attached Files:

  11. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    I like standard dials for the engines.
    I don't like digital, I prefer a standard analogue dial.

    I have Furuno electronics that are a bit dated but functional and reliable.

    My electronics and autopilot are also tied into a "black box" windows based marine computer.

    The screen is a military spec-water resistant large display.
    It can repeat any of the electronics and even overlay internet weather and AIS on the chartplotter.
    I could also put engine and fuel inputs into the screen if I wanted to.
    I can actually run the boat with a mouse.
    It is pretty cool, I like the system, but I prefer the old school stuff.
    It is easy to get consumed in the gismos, screen, and mouse pads and run the boat right into something because you have your head buried in too much information.

    I really don't think anybody uses a compass and a chart anymore.
    I wonder what would happen to most operators today if the wrong fuse blew and they were forced to DR or use their compass or find a paper chart.

    Current, set, and drift??? anyone remember that?

    btw, I recently had a somewhat experienced recreational boater tell me he doesn't need a depth finder because the depths are on an app that he has on ipad and he has it on his cell phone as a back up.....Really?Really????
  12. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    Time to drop the hook, stick in the old VHS tape, and refresh the memory. :D

    Amazon.com: Using Nautical Charts: Official USCG Training Films, #201 [VHS]: Gene Grossman, skipper of the Gene Grossman: Movies & TV
  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Many years ago, when I learned to fly and then got my instrument rating, one of the basic skills I learned was to scan instruments the right way but always always looking outside the airplane

    This has stuck with me all these years and I use the same technique in the boat. Outside, engine gauges, outside, radar, outside, plotter, outside, sounder, outside, heading, outside, engine gauges, etc...

    It really scares me when folks start adding and relying on additional devices they dont really need at a certain time like AIS, Flir, complex radar/plotter overlay, etc. there is just not enough brain cells to process all the data, or maybe I m just not smart enough.

    Over the past few days, I ve had two encounters with boaters who where not looking on their stbd side... They were looking everywhere including at their instruments except where it mattered. In both cases, when they got 5 blasts and finally looked on their stbd they jumped up surprised to see a "big" white boat just 50' away.
  14. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    Concur - pascal and oldfart are on point
  15. sunchaserv

    sunchaserv Member

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    Navatech

    It is all doable if you have the money.

    In modernizing to NMEA 2000 for monitoring things - all the engine, genset, bilge pump, fuel level etc readouts will likely need new senders to be compatible. This is not a low dollar chore. Then the cost of a NMEA 2000 backbone, not cheap either.

    I have a NN3 MFD 12 at both helms with 6KW open array, DFFI, hub and AIS. An easy $18K to redo and install these Furuno items alone. I don't use the Furuno chart plotters except for readouts and single point lines for the longer runs relying instead upon much more user friendly laptop based Nobeltec.

    I do love my analog engine gauges, but for sure upgrade to Aetna ( or similar) electronic tachs.
  16. Navatech

    Navatech New Member

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    I think that it goes without saying that proper watch keeping (includes having full situational awareness) by all is absolutely essential for the safety of all.

    As I'm aware that not everybody follows that directive I always impress on people who are with me (and keeping watch) that I don't care what the collision regulations say about which is the standoff vessel - it's our responsibility to make sure that our boat is not involved in an accident. The simple rule I keep to is "if there is any doubt, then there is no doubt" - act in a timely manner!

    First thing I do on any boat I buy is ascertain the accuracy of the compass. And I don't mean a digital fluxgate one but one of those old school ball in liquid ones from a reputable maker. If there is none I'll get one. I also make sure to have a good hand held one to take bearings.

    As for charts, reference my earlier post where, after somebody suggested I use the console space to the left of the helm to position displays, I explained that this area will be my "chart table". That's where I will keep a chart under a plate of plexiglass (to protect from water and enable easy marking). And, one of the cups in the cup holder will hold grease pencils (to half hourly mark stuff on top of the plexiglass) a parallel ruler and two compasses (a two pointed one and one with a point as well as a grease pencil).

    One should have a good supply of spares for all fuses found on board. They're cheap, lightweight and don't take up much space. As a blown fuse is usually an indicator of a fault in the circuit it helps to know how to find such faults as otherwise you'll just be blowing fuse after fuse to no effect.

    Worst case scenario, be prepared to install a jury-rigged alternate power supply. Some wire, fuse holders, crimping tool and connectors are cheap, lightweight and don't take up much space.

    As long as I can make landfall somewhere I'll be able to take it from there with simple coastal navigation. So, if I'm coming from Freeport, Bahamas and headed for Ft. Lauderdale, FL I'm not particularly worried if I end up making landfall opposite Boca Raton or Hollywood, FL.

    If I happen to be going the other way I'll just abort the trip (unless I'm in sight of the Bahamas). Even though I have the Navionics package both on my iPad as well as on my iPhone. Which is why I make certain to have roughly 220% of the calculated fuel requirement on board.

    Belt and suspenders approach? I say, better safe then sorry.
  17. Navatech

    Navatech New Member

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    Anecdote

    Actually, the above reminds me of something back in the day that I was still a (engine) cadet. I had come off watch and came up to bridge to visit the (deck) cadet who had just gone on watch.

    We were on a Panamax box carrier going from Port Elisabeth, NJ to port of Savannah, GA. Night time, a few miles off shore in the late 70's (GPS was still science fiction).

    When I came up (and was able to assume lookout duties) the mate sent the other cadet to the mess for coffee. While on the bridge I asked the mate where we were. He answered "that depends". Then he explained:

    1. If you ask your cadet friend he'll go out on the wing, use the pylorus to get a couple of bearings, then he'll come back to the chart, work a bit with the parallel rulers make an "X" on the map with a pencil and say we're here.
    2. If you ask me, I'll go out on the wing, have a visual look at a couple of landmarks, come back, make a circle with my finger on the map and say we're here.
    3. If you ask the captain, he'll glimpse outside, lay his hand on the map and say we're here.
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Actually, the captain may have just glanced at his big old Furuno box radar, possibly pushed the range button once or twice, saw the configuration of the land and his distance from shore and put his finger on the chart. Thus giving his mate and cadet their lesson of the day so they'd be able to navigate when the fog came in.:)
  19. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    I remember RDFs being used in the 70s , the only problem was that you could be 180 off if you didn't have situational awareness or multiple stations.

    I don't recall when LORAN started appearing in the recreational market. I do remember that the units were extremely expensive at first. I remember keeping watch at the LORAN, constantly interpolating and plotting TDs to get a position fix.
  20. sunchaserv

    sunchaserv Member

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    In my offshore racing days in the 60s the navigator on one ketch was an old (40?) WWII Pacific fighter pilot who was very well versed on RDFs and celestial navigation. Some of the NY, Boston and Baltimore AM stations had great offshore coverage to aide us as we left and returned from the coast. His flying stories and reconnecting problems back to the carrier group made the low wind periods a great learning experience for a young know-it-all buck.