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100 foot vs 120 foot MY

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by seascot, Dec 29, 2013.

  1. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    Based on the criteria you put forth, I think you will find your options smaller than 20 builders. At least if you are not counting true custom builders among the 20.

    I would strongly consider chartering a few different styles of vessel a few times to help you narrow your search.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You can learn so much by chartering both before and after you think you've figured it out. It can be your discovery experience but also your confirmation. Final move before placing an order. I like that you indicated different "styles". If you don't know whether displacement or semi-displacement is right for you, then a week on both can give you some greater understanding. Find out if it's important to you to go faster than 12 knots. Find out how much ride you feel you give up. Also find out specific things you like and dislike. If you're building semi-custom you'll be able to consider those things. Some of the things that you'll find annoying are easily avoided or changed. Each time your charter helps you better understand what is truly important to you. Then when you think you know what you want, what better way to be sure than charter identical boats to it. If all your charter time seems to be smooth water, while I wouldn't recommend doing anything dangerous, I would recommend perhaps seeking out some rougher water or at least not avoiding it. Find out how the boat handles it. That may sell you more or make you run.

    The vast majority of semi-custom boats in the range you're considering are available for charter. If they aren't, you might try to ascertain why. Even if you're looking at custom you may find something they built similar. It doesn't even hurt to charter that style everyone else is recommending but you think is wrong for you, if you promise to give it a fair shot.

    Examples of some types of things you might learn:

    We learned we absolutely 100% wanted both upper and lower helms and would not consider a boat without both. We do participate in operating the boat and in good weather we like being outside. But we also want the opportunity to be inside in bad conditions.

    We got a feel for engine room layout and convenience. When the engines are hot and the conditions rough it feels a lot different than it does sitting at the dock.

    We got to understand the ride in a variety of conditions and with the seas coming from all sides. Also the maneuvering and visibility for docking.

    This may sound silly but we had concerns about a master having the bed facing "backwards," foot toward the stern. We found out that we didn't care one way or another.

    We didn't know how much we'd use a hot tub. We found out, a lot.

    There was one refrigerator we always felt the door was backwards on as it was most awkward.

    We discovered we liked built in seating better than loose especially on the bow but really in the cockpit and on the bridge.

    We confirmed we like rib jet tenders.

    We found ourselves uncomfortable with the rails on several boats. It was like the aesthetic designer had overruled his safety side. It's not much but four to six inches makes a huge difference.

    We concluded with a hot tub on board then in the master bath we'd rather have a very large shower, quite suitable for two, than a smaller shower and a tub. We shower mostly and for the soaking feeling, nicer to be up on deck than hidden away inside. Well, guess if one takes that too far they'd be showering on deck too. Careful.

    We found many crew quarters sleeping arrangements less than we would have hoped and some bad enough to cause us to say no to the boat. If we didn't feel we could be comfortable, then we wouldn't want to put others in them.

    We discovered some incredibly comfortable boat furniture and some chairs that made you think you were being punished.

    We were on one boat that is normally being sold without a lower helm. We tried to simulate one in our mind including seat height. We discovered that in planing there was a period of loss of visibility we found quite disturbing at a seated height. Definitely would require standing.

    We evaluated our feelings on aluminum versus fiberglass from a sheer aesthetic and feel view point, nothing to do with technical or engineering issues. We were surprised that we were almost totally unaware of a boat being aluminum.

    We discovered that the small stateroom desk which I thought was a waste of space was actually quite functional. While still we do any serious work on deck and with more a more open view, there are times for just a few minutes this is very convenient.

    We got a real life feel for noise levels. Also for the various electronics.

    Now your likes and dislikes are probably far different from ours. The point isn't what we felt, but it's the wide variety of things you discover. Most of all it will make you feel sure and confident when you make a purchase. If you have doubts about something you're considering, then that means the answer is no.
  3. sunchaserv

    sunchaserv Member

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    I'm not sure many, if any, of the above named yachts can do the distance from Vancouver to Maui. Broaden your search to include Northern Marine and Watson, they both offer completion to Nordhavn. The N76 to 86 size range can easily do the distance travel you desire for a lot less money than the N120.

    But, number one on your list should be range. This will become a very short list.
  4. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    120 ft long range yacht

    To cover the distance from Vancouver to Maui, you need a yacht with a theoretical range of about 3000 to 3200 NM. This would cover the distance of 2600 NM between Vancouver and Maui and includes double engine fuel consumption at economical speed (which I would call max. range speed), allowance for generator use, sea margin and a reasonable fuel reserve.

    Taking the example of the Nordhavn 120 (as from their website) with its 17.500 Gal of fuel and its double MTU 8V 2000 M72 engines with 965 HP each, I would calculate the max range (no wind, calm sea) speed to about 9,5 to max. 10 Kts. At that speed, I would caculate the total fuel consumption (including gensets) of this NH 120 to about 65 to 66 US Gal per hour. With no reserves calculated, your favorite trip is possible but in my opinion not advisable. You either have to include more tankage, take a different boat or plan shorter legs :D.

    IMHO the NH 120 is a great boat and would be very high on my list, if I would be shopping in that size of boats. When I first heard about the price of the NH 120, I also found it quite expensive.

    But you have to take in account, that the NH 120 is not a real production boat. It is at least a semi custom, if not a fully custom boat. Hull # 01 was most likely calculated very carefully and very conservative, because it was the first boat in that size, both for the guys at Dana Point and at the yard in China.

    The asking price for hull # 01 probably includes some cost for R&D, tooling and the moulds. Maybe the owner of the first hull got a deal with some reward, if more NH 120 are sold and the costs of tooling and the moulds can be spread among more customers. For 25 million $ or 20 million Euros, you would get a 130 to 140 ft steel displacement long range explorer yacht in Europe. Maybe not in Germany or the Netherlands but in the Med for sure.

    If you are planning a long range yacht with payed and permanent employed crew, you need a carefully designed crew area. For a 120 ft yacht like the NH 120, you need a crew of 6 (skipper plus 5 able seaman), better 1+6, in order to work on continous watch on the longer legs.

    Regardless of the more idealistic dreams of some prospective owners about close and family like relations between owner / guests and the crew, you need decent crew quarters and crew rest facilities like like crew lounge, crew pantry and some entertainment. Privacy both for crew and the owner is very important. Crews want that.

    This includes an interior passage way (not a seperate) from the crew area to the wheelhouse and a safe passage from the engine room to the crew area. Otherwise crew members might be stuck in bad weather and heavy sea on their duty position or in their quarters. If this happens, you will loose those crew members in the next safe harbour, just because of the impracticable layout of your boat.

    IMHO, I would visit the people from Nordhavn at Dana Point or Northern Marine (or a comparable yard in the States) and explain your ideas. They will have a solution. Be prepared for 3 to 4 years delivery time and have some big bucks ready for handover.

    Good luck on your purchase and keep us informed. There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.
  5. travler

    travler Senior Member

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    just a thought but there have been a couple of us that have taken delta 70's around the world they only built 5 of them but they have very good range and good systems also they handle rough weather better than a lot of other boats I have been on, mirama come to mind I think it was launched in 2008 or 2009 and I think it has a 10,000 mile range that was a delta also

    just food for thought

    travler
  6. seascot

    seascot New Member

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    We are going to meet with the Nordhavn sales group at the Seattle boat show.
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    A couple of comments on the distances and range. First, a leg to San Francisco can provide some safety factor. Also, while the range meets the needs but without the reserves some might want at 11-12 knots, at 9 knots, per numbers derived by Nordhavn in both simulations and on the actual delivery of the first one, it has considerable excess as it's usage drops dramatically.

    As to the price, let's keep in mind that the prices made public are intentionally on the high side, full list so to speak, but actual prices paid may actually come in a bit less. In addition $20-25 million sounds like a very reasonable range for a boat of that size and with it's other attributes. Understand I say this objectively as it's not the type boat that interested me.

    As to crew space, I have a couple of concerns about it and many in it's range. It's got the standard double captains cabin off the pilothouse and three bunk over bunk crew cabins. So unless the captain has a mate serving that is a limit of 7. For most cruising the number would seem fine. However, for a cruise of that duration I would want more if combining all crew including stews and deckhands into that number. Over that duration I feel like the normal crews tax in terms of rotations and especially when any mechanical or electrical problems are encountered. That being the case, I know of no boats in that range with more so it does require some flexibility including possible use of staterooms. Most boats I've observed covering those distances haven't had maximum guests aboard. There is also another factor that enters into crew room capacity and is often overlooked and that is sex of crew members. If you have an odd number of either sex then you have one wasted space unless opposite sex members share a cabin.

    Now unfortunately most boats in this size range have similar layouts for crew accommodations. Much of it is perhaps related to desire to have maximum staterooms for charter. We don't intend to charter and would have gladly forfeited a stateroom for better crew accommodation.

    Now as to the comment on "idealistic dreams of some prospective owners," I would not purport to define what is right for all owners and captains and crews. I can only purport our relationship with our captains, who are a married couple. They live in our guest house and we are close to them. Our relationship is not traditional. We have traveled some on our own boat which lacks adequate crew space as it's not designed for long cruising with them using a stateroom and it has worked fine. Furthermore, we have chartered several larger boats that came with crew and while the charter crew used the crew accommodations, our captains used a stateroom. Also do understand that on our boat of choice, one of the staterooms actually has a bulkhead door to the crew area so can be used for crew and easily closed off from the guest area if desired.

    Still I do believe proper accommodation for crew is very important in terms of both space and quality. But just as important is having adequate crew to not overwhelm or overwork the crew. One aspect of our philosophy is that we do want all our crew happy and treated better than normal crew situations. I have observed some rather horrendous and shocking negativity and issues between crew and captains and owners and guests. I've seen crew treated not simply as crew but as subjects or inferior persons and I would never tolerate a guest of mine doing so. I've never tolerated disrespect in an office environment and certainly will not on a boat. I also don't believe anyone overworked with unreasonable duties or hours can be expected to perform at a maximum level. Again, others might have entirely different views and relationships, but ours work for us and fit with our philosophies and ways of dealing with people. So what is one person's idealism is our reality.

    Your timeframe for a custom boat is in line and one reason we didn't go that route. I don't honestly know right now if a Nordhavn 120 more fits that time frame or that of a true semi-custom. I would think their timeframe now would be less, but still at least two years from order date and the time from first talking to placing an order can be short or extremely long.

    I totally agree with you regarding stupid questions, especially when one is trying to learn. Ultimately one has to digest all the information and then figure out the solution that best fits them. Their plans, views, and questions are likely to change often during the process.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Marama is 123', two 650 hp and a stated range near 9000 miles at 10 knots. It has a fuel capacity of 22,600 gallons.
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Best advice... charter both a 100' and a 120' yacht of what you like and then you will know... !
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Probably requires chartering more than one builder's boat as both size and type are at issue. But I am a firm believer in the value of chartering to assist in the decision making process.
  11. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Internal layout of a yacht with the crew in mind

    Having owned and operated several yachts in my life, both power and sail, my boats were getting bigger with me getting older and at one point, they were becomming classed ships with permanent and payed crew. At that point you personal taste and your and your family's way of life are not the only requirements when composing the internal layout of your new boat.

    Class requirements, LY2/3 regulations, IMO, ILO, SOLAS regs and rules become a player. A neccessary watertight bulkhead will cut your crew area in half, the need for adding compulsory escape hatches might degrade available crew space. Additional ventilating systems and airconditioning systems may cost more internal space. If your design is asking for the max guest space for 12 and you feel the need for ample amount of toys, you are in trouble, if you try to squeeze the dedicated crew space in the remaining length and volume.

    And this is axcactly what happens with some semi custom designs, especially from the Med. I have seen crew quarters on yachts, where you would not be allowed, to keep your dog in one of those cabins, not to mention two crew members. And this with almost no crew rest area!!!

    Comming from the commercial shipping world, where crews have much more space available and much more amenities on their hand during a cruise, in the yachting world, I had to learn.

    I did that by listening to my skipper(s). The crew will not tell you, how they would like to be treated on board. They will just leave you, if they dont like their job. But your skipper is in close contact with his crew, he knows how they feel and think about your boat, their job and about you and your guests.

    The best designed boats are the ones where the sipper stays with the owner and grows on his abilities and knowledge with each yacht of this owner. The Royal Huisman yacht Twizzle or the L├╝rssen yacht Quattroelle are the best examples. Perfect looking yachts with a perfect layout.

    Yes, the composition of your crew regarding gender is important. Female crew members add to the quality of the service, the cleaneness of the boat and most important to the quality of the social climate among the crew. The male crew members are just more polite and up to shape if females are part of the crew.

    On a long sailing race, I had a pure male crew, just to be competitive with the other boats. The conversation got rough after some days, my skipper will not do that again.

    Allowing relations among crew members is not the business of the owner, its a pure matter of the skipper, he is responsible for the moral on board. Some captains allow it or even like it, because it might safe crew space. Some captains do not tolerate that or allow mixed gander crew cabins. An old saying among yacht captains is, if a relation between crew members brakes apart and one leaves the ship, you loose both crew members.

    The ideal crew space setup and internal layout, my skipper and his crew and me and my family found over the years are as follows:

    The skipper has a double cabin with working desk and couch plus ensuite bath near the wheelhouse and not on the crew deck. The crew has twin cabins with either staggered bunks or twin beds, excluding the Chief and Chef, which also have double cabins but only occupied by one person, unless their mate is part of the crew. In my case, the skipper has his wife living with him in the captains cabin, she is the chief stewardess (and the admiral of the crew :)). We have two more mixed crew cabins and luckily it works fine for several years now.

    But most important, we have privacy both for the owner / guest side and the crew. The setup is as such, that the crew is unvisible during their below deck duties. And this means, the crew is not watched by the owner/guests during those duties. They have access to all duty areas below deck without entering the owner/guest spaces, via dedicated crew passage ways and staircases and they only have to appear during service. The forecasle is dedicated crew area and we stick to the aft decks. This is not because we want that, thats what evolved from the captain and crews wishlist. And they like it and stay with us and the boat.

    This might not always be possible on a 120 ft boat but most of it can be realized even on smaller yachts. But 12 guests, 8 crew and ample of toys might be tough for the designer, especially with a fast planning boat with 2 big 16V4000 MTU in it, because the owner wants to see 40 Kts. On a yacht like a NH 120 or equivalent, most of these requirement could be met, if you restrict youself to 6 guests plus owner and have limited toys with on deck storage.
  12. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    HTMO9 is right... usually is too.

    The crew area is very very important... as well as crew rest or entertainment area. In looking at used boats crew and working areas is were my second concern is, the first is type and quality of boat. The operational living areas on the boat are the most important to its safe operation, and also very very important, indirectly, to guess comfort.

    Now sail boats this can be more challenging but also less challenging. Usually sail boats have less internal volume which is the more challenging aspect. But on the positive because of the need of sail handling in operating the boat it means most of the boat deck space is open to crew presence. This leads to more interaction between the guest and crew. Both then get more accustomed to each other. One other comment as to male and female: in sail racing most often female crew members are counted as 1/2 a crew member under manning rules. This is based on the assumption they are not as capable or strong. With modern sail handling this is very much less true now-a-days. However, in my opinion (along with all female members of the family, who outnumber the male by attrition) the females are worth twice the value of male members except in very limited situations yachts try to avoid... the exception is the engineering aspect... guys still rule there it seems. Conversely, guest services is where the ladies shine.

    Now my experience with large cruising motor yachts is more armchair than practical. But being in a 'low priority acquisition mode' I do a lot of looking. The best layout I have seen is the Feadship F45 series like the latest one was I believe Helix outside of the 60m and up size range... that very very few can afford anyway.

    Now the question is what is the situation when the owner or guests are not using the boat... as that is most of the time. That's the captain's call as to how much relaxation of the rules of the owner on board are given. Where the crunch is when the owner or guests are on board more than not... not usually the case.

    My personal opinion is the yacht is not a hotel room but an extension of the home...
  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Karo, i have to agree on your post, except I do not know the Feadship F 45.

    You are absolutly correct about the difference in deck handling and crew / owner interaction on sailing boats. Thats why I said below deck duties.

    On large sailboat races, the crew is increased from its standard 10 to 12 up to 30 crew members depending on the type of race and its specific rules. When I was still racing in the 80 ft class, the hydraulic systems for the winches and furling systems had to be disconnected during the race. The foresails had to be changed manually and the winches had to be powered manually, by so called coffee grinders, each manned with two strong guys, which had to work very hard. On large sailboat races with uge rigs and winches, which have to pull tons of line load, you cant do without hydraulics anymore. We now have coffee grinders which store power in advance. On long courses, the crew is charging the hydraulic manually and during sail maneuvers or course changes this stored power can be called and used.

    The only reason, we had a pure male crew at that time, was the fact, we had two guys for each bunk on board. And this included all bunks and beds, from owner and guests down to the last seaman. We just assumed that ladies might not like to share its bunk and linnen with strange man :).

    Today there is no reason for a pure male crew anymore. I have seen female crew members more fit and stronger than its male colleagues. A friend of mine even has a female Chief on his 147 ft powerboat. Gender is no argument for hiring a crew or not. There are other reasons for not accepting a specific crew member but definitely not gender.

    Attached Files:

  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    There you really get to the crux of the matter. That's definitely the way we approach it plus some. It is a home where for an extended time you are all living together so home where the staff all lives in.

    We eat at home in an informal casual manner even with guests, so we do on a boat.

    We don't change sheets daily at home. We don't on a boat unless in some way soiled and requested. We clean on a basis much as we do at home.

    We don't ask anyone to wait on us every second of the day at home so we don't on a boat.

    We don't expect our stews to work 16 and 18 hour days. Once the dinner dishes are in the dishwasher, their work day is over. We haven't given up habits we've always had. For instance, we and our guests carry our dishes to the kitchen after meals. If we want dessert or drinks later we get it ourselves and we return our dishes to the kitchen, rather than leaving them scattered. If we take a dish to our stateroom, when we exit in the morning, we return it to the kitchen.

    Our crew is allowed and encouraged to be on deck. With all the areas of a boat in this size range, there is plenty of space for crew to sit out and enjoy wherever we are without being on top of us or guests.

    The crew has their own galley and sitting area but is welcome as well to anything in our galley and they do get the same meals as we do, while having other options if they don't like what we're having.

    To us our crew are employees but they are also our guests who we want to enjoy their jobs and their time on the boat.

    As to rules, the crew does report directly to our captains but the rules of how we interact, how they are treated, what is expected are a joint effort between owners and captains in our case. The environment and culture of a boat starts with the owners just as that of a company does.

    We spend a lot of time in the pilothouse and even at the helm so our relationships with our captains have to be good and positive.

    Now working for us would not be for everyone. That's why we outline things very carefully up front. Many prefer a far more formal situation. Some captains don't want owners who also are operators. That's fine. That's why the interview process is very important and must go both ways. We've chartered several times and many of the charter crew members have made it clear to us they'd like to be considered when we add crew. Crew members are given handbooks with our boat rules and expectations so there are no misunderstandings. Much of that is safety related, making clear the safety of all including themselves is paramount. This includes health. Everything is tailored to our situation and most owners would be far different. But our crew also gets more time off than others, even when we're traveling.

    Frankly I've found much of the treatment of crews including captains by owners and other crew by captains to be shocking in the industry. I don't understand it. Captains cursing crew or demeaning them in front of guests or other crew, we don't allow. We don't allow guests to mistreat crew either. We're read many stories about drunken captains or crew and we do not allow alcohol consumption while working or within 10 hours of the start of a shift. We follow those same rules when operating. To us in an office it's a performance issue, on a boat it's a safety issue.

    Many of our rules and expectations are much as we'd have in any workplace. Others are as we'd have for our home. Others are tailored to the specific needs of boats. We've worked them out carefully with ourselves, captains we very much respect and the most experienced and respected stew we know.

    We treat all crew with respect and expect the same in return. We do allow for differences in personality as long as it doesn't infringe on others. For instance, we recently spent two weeks with a very interesting engineer. He is, not unusual probably for that position, very much a loaner who doesn't bother anyone and keeps to himself. He spent most of his time below deck as he also had a very nice Engineer's cabin on that boat. However he was given days off during the course of the cruise and we found him to be not only very knowledgeable in his expertise but a very interesting and engaging person. He was also the type who on his days off hit museums, especially if maritime, hit lighthouses which is a passion I share except I just look at the beauty he looks at function, and hits book stores. He is not then unsociable at all, just very focused on his job and a bit on the shy side. I could appreciate that because I'm very shy but accompanied by a wife who is very much the opposite so my shyness generally more than overcome.

    I do believe any owner who fails to properly understand the needs of his crew and doesn't create a situation conducive to crew happiness is going to ultimately find boating much less happy himself. As to crew turnover, I know many owners say it's just the way yachting is. Of course business owners say the same about high turnover. I will say firmly that continued high turnover in full time or permanent staff is a problem and a poor reflection on how things are being run. Managers or captains can try to explain it all they want, but ultimately the numbers do speak for themselves as a problem either in hiring or managing or both. I would also look at high turnover as a reflection on myself and a failure on my part. Now the turnover I want to see is only for greater opportunity than I can afford one on my boat. An officer to captain or stew to chief stew or engineer to chief engineer or something that is truly a career step up.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I always hear lifting as a gender issue and it never should be. If it is then there are poor methods in use requiring lifting that neither male or female should be doing. I only mentioned gender as an issue in sleeping arrangements. We do have a female captain, actually married to a male captain, so a team. But then both the CEO and the CFO of our businesses are female as are 90+% of our other key employees.

    Although I'm sure there are some, the only area in which we haven't encountered females yet are engineers.
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    They are alive and well in the Commercial World so I feel the few we see on yachts will soon expand to a greater percentage.

    A Skipper I know on an 85m yacht has a female Chief Engineer with a Class 1 Unlimited Ticket , he says the housekeeping and paperwork is a lot better than a lot of her male counterparts.
  17. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    It's like many fields where there is no reason they wouldn't be equally capable. Just a field they were slower to enter plus I'm sure acceptance wasn't always there. We did meet one young girl at the Maritime School whose chosen path was to be an Engineer. Her father raced autos and she'd become interested at a young age in the engines and the chassis, but never had an interest in being a race car driver. She majored in mechanical engineering in college and along the way shifted her emphasis to naval architecture. She also observed that in her opinion the field was more open for females in yachting than it was in auto racing, although she thought the right person could earn their way to positions in either.