How much vacation time?

I run a fairly busy private boat, about 20 weeks a year. I rarely hear about not having enough time off or not enough vacation time. My crew is mainly young and foreign, we give 4 weeks a year and when we do not have guests weekends off and work 8-4.
I have found that if you have a set amount of time off in the contract, other than vacation, you are setting your self up for a lot of make up time, or paid out vacation time. I am lucky that I have a lot off leeway in how I dole out days off and vacation time, it is at my discretion. We recently had guests on for 5 weeks, which means we worked about 6 straight, afterwards everyone got 4 days off all in a row. Then we got right back to it for another 4 weeks straight, that is the nature of the business. I know one Captain who was dealing with a 5 day work week, well after several weeks with guests the crew was expecting a week off to make up for the days, that is why I caution on this.
Now, I have one crew member who is a bit older and has commitments back at home, we all work to make sure that he can take a full week in between trips and I hire a temp for when he needs more time off, like in the summer. I have tried to replace him twice now with failures and he keeps coming back, better to accommodate him than try to replace him! In my off season my Chef has always taken the entire time off, some paid, some not.
At the end of the day, it is good that a Captain has the flexibility to work vacation and work schedules out himself. Getting caught up in the Corporate world of accountability for time on/off is a night mare for a Captain.
After a year we do not count time off for courses and even after two years we give money towards courses. I make it quite clear you are being paid based on 365 days a year with 28 days vacation, that way I do not get caught up on the paid days off. I can honestly say may turn over has never had anything to do with time off or vacation.

That seems like a pretty fair way forward.

There is a discussion going on elsewhere on the internet about this from a Chief Engineer who is on equal time on time off who feels hard done by that the deck crew have been given time off after a long trip and he has not been given the same.

I have so far refrained from giving the group my opinion but understand why some Captains/Owners are nervous about the differing contracts between the depts when this sort of carry on is shown to exist.

If you are doing rotation time on/off and being paid full, I think you should get minimum time off during your on time.
I am sure some would disagree, but in the commercial world where the rotation comes from, you do not get time off during your hitch.
I have heard this about this issue from some friends who have crew on rotation.

A couple of key words-young and foreign. Let's talk young first. Part of the issue is that crew doesn't stay around and make it a career. You have only one older crew member and have to make different accommodations for him. I don't want all my crew to leave after a couple of years. Second is foreign. I don't know what countries that represents, but certainly those from some areas of the world are willing to tolerate different lifestyles than others.

As to corporate world of accountability, I do believe in that world. It doesn't have to be inflexible even though some make it so. Now, if it leads to extra pay at some point, then so be it. They worked more, earn more. It does lead to problems if not staffed adequately for it. Obviously with the time off we give we have to have more crew than you would with only 28 or 30 days off a year. In fact, it's simple math in that regard. 38% more crew is required, although one can argue that ours will be more productive due to lack of fatigue. So, if a boat were to require a crew of 8 under your situation, it would require a crew of 11 under ours. With us, we don't have problems with our method, simply because we're set up from the start to do it this way.

My crew is all US since we're flagged US. Subject to all US employment laws. Taxes withheld and paid, health insurance fully paid, 401-k, etc. The one place we do break with corporate US traditions is on time off, but we do that in our business too. Vacation there is 2 weeks the first year, 3 weeks after 2 years, 4 weeks after 5 years, 5 weeks after 10 years, 6 weeks after 15 plus holiday's.

I do have one other question of you. On those 32 weeks a year that you don't have the owner or guests, why do you need your full crew or most of it? Why couldn't all those weeks be handled with half crew?

This is an issue faced in business too. IT departments in large businesses are typically 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, although staffing varies. They aren't 9 to 5, five days a week. All systems upgrades are done during off hours. We are in retail and have very different hours for corporate vs stores. In manufacturing, the maintenance group regularly performs major work when the other workers were off.

In that world, you get a minimum of 10 hours off a day with at least 6 continuous and you get at least 77 hours a week off. You don't get full days off generally but you get some sort of work rotation during those days. Typical is 12 hours on and 12 off, 7 days a week. The caveat is when they need to work more due to conditions and for safety reasons and that is often abused.

Even that though is more reasonable than on some yachts where crew is expected to be up and working prior to any guests waking and expected to stay until after all guests go to sleep. There are many 16 hour days worked on yachts in spite of regulations.

I have 2 friends that work in the commercial oil field world as Captains. One is in Antartica right now and the other in the Gulf. They get paid a big premium over what a yacht Captains daily rate is for their license size, between $700-$800 a day for a 200 ton master along with all benefits (health insurance, 401k etc.). Considerably more for a bigger license. They work 12 hours on, 12 hours off, 28 days straight, but then have 28 days off all in a row. But in the 12 hours on, they may work all 12 hours running the boat, but half the time they're sitting around waiting for instructions to go to the next rig or waiting on the ship getting loaded with supplies. When it's busy, when fuel prices are high, the most they work or are allowed to is 28 days on/14 days off, but get paid daily for the additional time they're working.

A big yacht Captain can command that sort of money too. How many oil patch guys who have grown used to the big bucks are finding things tough with the downturn?

I have several crew members who were able to command some extremely high salaries, but chose to leave that life of working on megayachts. I have a young engineer who worked a year in the commercial field running back and forth in oil fields in the Gulf. The owner of the company she worked for was the one who told us about her as she was honest with him up front that she was doing that for training and to boost her license and then wanted to move on to the recreational side. That, as was her time in college interning on a Coast Guard vessel, was part of her training and education and not what she sought as a career.

Really military and commercial are totally beside the point of this thread. That's like comparing the typical civilian job to military or to working in oil fields. The topic is how much vacation on a 43 meter yacht with a crew of 9. The responses of those of us who responded range from 4 weeks a year to 125 days a year.

K1W1 is right as to what Big Yacht Captains (I'd call 200' and above big for this discussion) can command. $150k to $300k is the range. Chief Engineers at $100k to $200k and I've known them to make much more. There seems to be a great deal of respect by owners of megayachts for their Senior Masters and sometimes the same for Chief Engineers. Our Chief Stewardess was making $120k a year on a megayacht. However, I have observed, as have those I know from that arena, that some have a definitive cheapness about them when it comes to the rest of their crew. I've even heard such comments as "I'm taking them on a vacation around the world. They should be paying me." There are many megayachts where all positions except Senior Master, Chief Engineer, and Chief Stewardess turn over at a 50% rate per season. The rest of the crew is considered disposable. After all, there is always a replacement. I personally consider employee turnover to be a reflection on how I did my job.

Thanks for the response, Ken Bracewell. Based on your other posts on YF, I take it that you like your work even though it's not a 9-to-5 job, and that you're not being held onboard against your will during those 3 to 5 months the boss is aboard.

Yes it's true, but I'm talking about a Captain in their 20's as second captains on a 238' supply boat with a 200 ton master $700/800 day. The other one has a bigger license, older, and running a different style and larger boat and making more. They went from working 28 days on and 14 days off to working 28 days on and 28 off....but as you well know, can pick up days/trips running yachts or whatever on their time off.

Many years ago I worked on a couple of Megayachts owned by one owner..... the senior guys stuck around but out of 55-60 crew we had a 10% turnover PER MONTH and there were several reasons why. Vacation and time off wasn't one of them, as we all worked rotational with 8 days off per month, although sometimes it would be 4 or 5 and stack up for the slow time.

Sometimes it feels that way, but the feeling passes...

"I do have one other question of you. On those 32 weeks a year that you don't have the owner or guests, why do you need your full crew or most of it? Why couldn't all those weeks be handled with half crew?"

As everyone knows, when the boss is not aboard there is nothing to do, we mostly hang out in the hot tub, drink beer and work on our tans. I make sure everyone is aboard and not off on holiday in case I need something! Who would do my laundry and clean my room, not to mention bringing me breakfast in bed! As a mega yacht Captain, I have needs and a lifestyle I need to maintain, and if I gave crew time off, I would not be able to accomplish this.

No one said there was no work to be done or you were sitting around doing nothing. I just asked the question of giving people time off and operating on a reduced crew when no owner or guest aboard. I would think there is some reduction in crew requirements during that time.

That's how I operate. In addition to promised vacation time, I try to use my best judgement in allowing extra time off while balancing completion of the work list.

The drawback of the arrangement you have is in the key words, "I dole out days off and vacation time, it is at my discretion".
Then you go on to describe working 10 weeks with a 4 day break in the middle of it.
Because you dole out the days off, it isn't easy for someone to plan something in advance, or, as others here like older boater have described, actually have a life.
This is the attraction to a true rotational schedule, and if you can find the right personnel to fill the spots you have onboard, you would have very minimum turnover.

OB- My response in the post above was a bit snarky, I was giving the "Below Deck" response, of all people I know you understand what happens when the boat has no guests aboard.
Our schedule during the year is 4 months in service, then 2 out of service and so on. During the 4 months we are usually fairly busy. Last winter we had guests aboard for about 8-9 weeks with usually 2 weeks in between trips for time off and to get caught up on maintenance. During the 4 months of in service there is limited time for vacation, or time away from the boat. During the 2 months down time is when you can plan vacation, holidays and trips home. Many times a crew member has had something important that they need to attend during the season, and I have made accommodations for them, even though it costs to bring in a part timer. In the 11 years I have been running this boat, I have never heard a complaint about not enough time off.

Ychtcptn

Yours is exactly the attitude of the traditionalists and the one with which I disagree. That's fine for us to have opposite opinions on the subject. I understand your "mariner" lines but while it might be like that, it doesn't have to be.

One sentence I do want to ask about is "but I do not see it as economically feasible for a boat such as mine." That is one I do question. Economically feasible within current budget? Or are you saying that the owner just couldn't afford more? When it comes to the economics of yacht ownership, I don't know how one decides or where they draw the line. Along the way, I see a $30-40 million boat, I see an owner spending hundreds of thousands on guests and trips in and docking and fuel and on maintenance and periodic refurbishing. Then I hear that another $200k or $400k isn't feasible and I just wonder how that line in the sand was drawn. To me, you can't economically justify any boating, but as long as it's within affordability to you, then it's fine.

I'm simply suggesting that this industry needs to reexamine itself and decide whether there might be better ways. Long ago, those serving the oil fields and those operating tows on the rivers, did so. You comment on the older crew. I've not found that, but then I have found that to many of the better senior crew members, time off and with family has been a key to maintaining them.

Back to the math for a moment. I'll pick a hypothetical boat with a crew of nine, each having one month a year off. When we think of doubling the time off or rotation, we think of doubling the crew, but that's not really what is required. Crew of 9 working 11 months is 99 months of work. You achieve the same total time with a crew of 10 working 10 months or a crew of 11 working 9 months or a crew of 12 or 13 working 8 months. So you can add one crew member and double the time off or two crew members and triple it. By increasing your crew roughly 40% you can have 400% as much time off.

As to full rotational crews with two duplicate crews, I do see that as appropriate for boats getting heavy use by owner and in charter and therefore needing full crew nearly every day of the year. I do see those employees working 7 days a week when on duty.

What we do works for us. Perhaps what you do works for you. As an industry though, like all industries, we need to ask ourselves some simple questions.
1-How do we attract and recruit good young people who will be good long term employees?
2-How do we retain the best of those employees for entire careers and minimize turnover?
3-How do we create an environment in which our employees can be happy and have good lives outside of their jobs, good personal and family lives?

All industries have to periodically reexamine themselves. Sometimes it takes new persons who come in from outside the industry to stimulate that reexamination and change.

As far as letting part of the crew off during no guest times there will be some restriction if your vessel has a Safe Manning Document where there are a mimimum number of various qualified crew required. This is not normally enough to run the boat as a yacht but will be enough to get it from A to B safely.

It is my understanding that for those boats that have included manning requirements while laid up in their safe manning document, those are generally quite modest.