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Catamaran Adventure Planned

Discussion in 'General Catamaran Discussion' started by swift, Feb 25, 2023.

  1. swift

    swift New Member

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    G'Day Mates,

    I am an Aussie heading back to Australia. Would like to make it an adventure trip.

    I am thinking of buying a catamaran which has five cabins, with possibly fitted fore peaks to give some flexibility - Dufour 48, Aventura 45S, Bali Cat Space all being found in 5 cabin being on my examination list. Would larger length cats with the cabin numbers be preferable?

    In order to do this safely I would like to hire captain - or captain and crew for at least the first months. I would hopefully learn from the captain and become able to manage the boat after that or extend the time. If onboard for most of this time would that be enough. How would I find these personnel and what should I ensure that they know, in order to make trip as safe and enjoyable as possible.

    Route - cross Atlantic, travel the med for a time, and then Suez **** and through the Indian ocean to Australia.

    Solar is being hyped, on a sailing boat is this a valid power source? Has durability of batteries been shown to be fair. Does a sailing catamaran have benefits for regenerative power help this validity? Or is this hype. I know that the carbon cost is not neutral due to carbon lost in manufacturing of said batteries and mining costs in slave labour and environmental destruction for the components, but does this make you more off grid.

    In know this covers a variety of subjects. Thanks for any input.
  2. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    Go for it, I like the captain and crew idea for sure.
    Solar, plenty of space on a Cat for reasonable usage, rigid vs. flexible panel will be debated forever.

    Lithiusm Iron Phosphate battery management is getting more normal and seeing to become more standard fair.

    Regen, as is hydro, would be useful for long passages.

    I have no idea about carbon cost and footprint etc...but I like your plan so far.

    Oh, longer length at the water line for passage making is usually a good thing, not so much for haul out and marina life but for motion comfort and speed, yes please.
  3. swift

    swift New Member

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    Thanks gr8trn for encouragement. Any idea how to advertise or find captain \ crew?
  4. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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  5. swift

    swift New Member

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    That link is great. Should I ask if they have a preference in boat choice, or they will just accept that which I obtain?
  6. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    If I understand You correctly, You are looking for a sailing catamaran and You do not want to start Your journey in the New York area with an Atlantic crossing to start with.

    First question to start with is Your budget. Are You buying new or used? Except for this possible hired crew, how many people will be permanently on board during Your trip, which in my opinion is a great idea.

    Also I am not the biggest friend of French built sailboats (for quality) but as far as sailing catamarans are concerned, the well known French Yards are the best on the market, especially if designed by the VPLP bureau. I am missing the Lagoon range of sailing catamarans in Your listing. They are presently the best in quality, design and sailing performance.

    Never ever go for a sailing catamaran with an enclosed foward bridge deck between the hulls, if You want to sail on any larger bodies of water other than a little pond. The forward net prevents the slamming of the waves under the center deck. There were some british designed cats with a solid foredeck on the market. I have sailed on one of those misfits on the east coast of the UK and I was more than happy, when this sea trial was over.

    On a 45 to 50 ft sailing cat, especially when designed with a flybridge and / or hardtop, there is plenty of area for flexible solar panels. When sailing in the Med and further south, they help a lot. Generating electrical power with shaft generators will only work with shaft drives of course. But boats in that size range will have quite often saildrives. Saildrives and shaft generators / alternators do not work together. But this type of power generation will not work, when being on the hook.

    But as catamarans have pretty good sailing performance (fast), a twin engine sailing catamaran with a shaft alternator on each shaft or even a trailing alternator and plenty of solar panels will generate enough DC power while enroute. With a propper set of inverters and a decend battery bank, You might even do electric cooking without using a diesel generator. Air conditioning is a different story and needs a very good calculation. With just cooling down the sleeping cabins in the evening, it might work but I doubt cooling the complete boat, especially the big salon will work only with stored power.

    I would not go with all of this fancy Lithium battery stuff. If You will need assistance or repair /exchange in the some remote areas on Your way to down under, You will run into problems. But do not plan without at least a little diesel generator.

    Unless You want to go into charter when back home in Australia, do not try to crunch to many beds into a given layout. On most layouts, I have seen, the forepeaks in the hulls could be converted into bunks, if You find a person being able to live without any creature comfort. You will need space for sails, parts, provisions and I would highly recommend a watermaker. There are very reliable DC powered watermakers on the market. 20 litres of fresh (potable) water production per day, per person on board will be sufficient, when the showers can be switched for saltwater and freshwater use (with the special soap of course).

    Anyhow, that sounds like a great plan to take a nice sailing catamaran on its own keel from the Med, through the Suez to Australia. I have done that rip only as a captain on one of my fathers large commercial vessels but in some areas there is still a pretty high danger of being attacked by pirats or other criminals, especially in the Eritrea and Dschibuti area. And going instead around the cape of Africa is not any better. Propper planning and going in convoy in the most dangerous areas will help a lot.

    Good luck with You plans and feel free to ask more questions.

    HTMO9
  7. swift

    swift New Member

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    HTMO9 I did plan to do NY across to the Med. Thanks for the input. So for you a Bali cat space is out because of 'slamming' (I have read that due to higher clearance than the earlier foredeck (no trampoline boats) this has disappeared. Also, due to maintenance a larger battery array lead acid battery array would be preferred. I have 4 kids, and would use the boat as a live aboard in Australia. The elder two would not be on this journey, though as they would have returned earlier for Uni (college) studies. Interesting about switching salt to fresh and vice versa, haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

    So if hydrogenation is to be used shaft drive is required, will need to keep that in mind when reading specs. On the hook is when in dock, not while sailing, or does it refer to some setting on the engines?
  8. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    When going with family, especially with children, You should definately plan with a proficient crew on the first legs. You will need some indoor elbow space for the kids when playing. You cannot have them always play in their sleeping cabins. And when going across the pond, take the southern route and intercept the tradewinds at the optimum season. This will take You most likely to the Azores or the Canary islands. From there into the Med is fairly easy.

    But for really easy tradewind sailing, You will need a rig, capable of carrying tradewind sails. And definately go for a trampoline boat. A sloop rig with multiple furling forestays, a park avenue boom and full button main sail will for sure do the job.

    Lead Acid batteries are a thing of the past for larger house battery banks. I would go for AGM batteries. Safe with pretty high
    energy density and much longer lasting. With on the hook, I mean, when on anker outside harbours.

    There are some fancy saildrives, which can be turned around. When the prop is pointing to rear, the prop can fold for better sailing performance and when pointing forward, it unfolds and can drive an alternator. But I do not know, whether this hybrid gears can be retrofitted. If the boat of Your choise is equipped with standard saildrives You can add a drag generator or hoistable wind generator. But do not expect too much power output from those "toys".

    With shaft drives, the implementation of hydrogeneration, even after delivery, is pretty easy. It is basically a wheel attached to the shaft, a belt and an alternator. The advanced part on the electricity is the power regulation and battery charging of all the power sources and of course the generation of AC power through inverters. But a constantly working airconditioning for comfort will easily ruin Your calculation.

    One more point to concider are powered cooling boxes or freezers. Here I would go for the water cooled DC swing compressors with a mass sponge below the waterline as the heat exchanger. They have a pretty low power consumption. Under the bottom line, if You can live without a constantly running AC, Your carbon free sailing will be possible, especially with a fast sailing cat in sunny areas.

    Attached some little pictures of my examples.

    23585-212453.jpg
    park avenue boom, where You just can drop the full button square head mainsail into. Much easier to handle, especially with kids on deck.

    shaft generator.jpg

    Very easy arrangement of a shaft generator

    hoistable wind generator.jpg
    hoistable DC wind generator

    drag generator.jpg
    A drag generator mounted on the pushpit.

    20331-15756684.jpg

    A typical tradewind sail

    It all depends on Your budget and whether You want to buy new or or second hand. With buying new, You can plan everything, when buying second hand, You have to make compromises. Have a look at Lagoon, Fontain Pajot, Catana and St. Francis from South Africa. They are solid boats with nice interiors and good sailing performance.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  9. swift

    swift New Member

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    Thanks for clarification. Due to timing I need to probably buy used. I need to look further into some of your explanations as they are deeper than what is generally provided, thanks.
  10. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    The new range from Group Beneteau "Excess" Catamarans are showing nicer performance than tradition lagoons. The two new hulls and rigs the Excess 11 and 14 are desgined from the powerhouse design team at VPLP as you mention. However, the Excess 14 will to too small for the planned program looking for many staterooms/berths. @swift mentioned 5 cabin requirement. That may be a big lagoon. I really don't know of a 50 foot Cat with 5 cabins other than charter boats.
    I know if I were doing his program RTW tradewind route in a Cat, with no time for a new build (which are out many years in the current economy), I would look for the largest Outremer, Balance, HH, Privilege that would meet the space requirements.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  11. swift

    swift New Member

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    Is there some sailing difference or others that occur in charter boats that one should be aware of - usage and care being part of it?
  12. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    Yes.
    Sailing catamarans come in many shapes and sizes and designs. They are all designed with a brief. That brief will define the goals of the intended end user.
    Charter cats, what are they for? Med or Carib island hoping with lots of space, berths and load carrying capacity. What are then not designed for? Passage making, to put it shortly.

    This is not to say the Charter cat designs cannot and do not cross straights and oceans. They can and do. Just not as efficiently or with as much comfort and will not stand the rigors of repeated crossings as well as a purpose built cat. Case in point.

    Two french built boats. Catana and Lagoon. Just look at how the bulkheads are managed in the construction. One is composite foam coring tabbed into the hull. One is marine plywood glued to the hull.

    Here is a nice book to read on the subject:
    Catamarans: The Complete Guide for Cruising Sailors
    by Gregor Tarjan
  13. swift

    swift New Member

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    Thanks gr8trn I will look into your range of suggestions, I am assuming the Catana is foam cored but neither brands commented on construction techniques in the quick flick through that I just took. In the back of my mind I feel that foam would be less likely to retain damage from water than plywood. I guess it also depends on how well constructed the outer layers, on both sides that will prevent water penetration. Is one easier to repair than the other (especially if it has to be done on the fly, until a proper marina can be found for repair in case of an accident?
  14. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    You will find, oddly, that manufacturer web sites have very little on hull lay up and construction methods and materials. I have yet to find information like this readily available. I am afraid I would have to bother the staff at the manufacturer with emails and phone calls to get more information. Perhaps current or past owners of specific boats you are interested in can help out too. There are many owners forums and face book groups that may be of assistance as well.

    There are pros and cons to foam vs. end grain balsa coring for sure. I have had solid glass boats, balsa cored boats and foam cored. No problem with any of them. I cannot comment on first hand experience on repairs.

    I think a repair on the fly is more likely needed to plywood bulkheads glued to the hulls, is it easier on the fly? I don't know.
  15. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Swift, YouTube has Sailing Zatara. It is a series of videos about a family cruising a sailing cataraman all over the word and for sure in the Suez and Indian Ocean. I think you would find it very informative and interesting. I did.
  16. swift

    swift New Member

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    I have watch a few Sailing Zatara, SLV and others. Not sure if some of there comments about production based boats are true or biased. Trying to get all view points, especially when the 'performance boats' are commanding a huge premium.
  17. swift

    swift New Member

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  18. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Age will not be a problem, if well maintained. If hull and deck are not made with sprayed fiber reinforced plastic and You will be able to fly a tradewind sail on that rigg, that boat might be able to do the job, if Your family can get used to that internal design :). The internal layout is interesting but will work. On an atlantic crossing and on the Indean Ocean with that large four burner stove top and gas powered stove, You will run out of bottled gas. You will need that burner and the stove exchanged with an electric version. For a minimum carbon footprint, You will need more solar panels and I did not see a watermaker. To integrate change over valves and pumps for using saltwater in the showers, is no big deal. But be advised, that multihull is not a raceboat. Crossing the pond will take its time.
  19. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    One the surface seems to fit your project and required size/number of berths.
    She has had seeming recent updates here and there.
    Irma victim admitted, I would want insurance claim documents for sure for any claims to confirm said damage and repairs.
    1,400 watts of solar that is newer seems decent with that battery bank.
    Ditch the wind generator and install a hydro generator.

    I missed the fuel capacity.

    Like HTM wrote you will run out of propane or not fine it in certain locals, think about electric cooking for sure.

    As far as being older, not an issue with proper survey and inspection and insurance claim history.

    She is a heavy girl so light wind performance will be an issue.

    While on the subject of how fast is she, I may start another thread related to VMG and passage making as I have questions in that regard.

    Cheers!
  20. bstet

    bstet New Member

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    I don't care for the layout. Sitting in the cockpit is like down in a hole, you can't see forward. The Bridge deck clearance is low, and as said previously, it is heavy and has fat hulls = not a good sailing vessel. Construction is average. I wouldn't buy a hurricane damaged boat!