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Yachts over 24 meters required to meet IMO TIER III engine emissions next year.

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Capt J, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Here's an article on it. But anything over 80' is going to need to meet Tier III emissions. This is going to be a huge problem as they're going to need to have a large catalytic converter which throws a lot of heat, a UREA tank and going to need to burn UREA fluid. I've heard some builders are going to stop focusing on building over 80' altogether. Some motoryacht and sportfish builders that are going to skip the 80-115' size segment altogether as it's almost impossible to fit everything, deal with the heat, and the weight of it all. Here's an article on it. What has everyone else heard in regards to builders and how they're dealing with this.

    https://www.boatinternational.com/y...plain-the-imo-tier-iii-nox-regulations--28741

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  2. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    I read an article interviewing pat healey from Viking and he was saying they were not going to make any boats requiring tier 3 emissions compliance. The article as well as I can remember was referring to a 90 some footer.
  3. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  4. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    Sorta old news. IMO2020 info has been available for sometime (like 2005). It's for the reduction of sulphur in bunker and diesel fuels.

    http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/Pages/Sulphur-2020.aspx

    It's why we ordered three LNG powered tugs. The first one is already in service. It was either LNG or modifying the 15 conventional tugs. By the time we added up the costs of scrubbers, it was less costly to order new vessels. We sold all but one tug.

    Marine industry has been late to the emissions party the trucking industry has had to endure since 2009. Lowered diesel sulphur to 15ppm. Every diesel from a pickup to an otr is required to have a SCR catalytic converter and either use DEF (urea) and/or DPF to reduce NOx. The trucking industry has been the guinea pig for all this tech. Idling a pickup for hours on end is not good for the engine or the environment either. Where it was common pre-93 to do so, now it leads to heavy build up of soot and early failures. But with all the new tech I won't give up my 1992 Dodge 350 with a 12 valve mechanical Cummins. It has 200,000km on the second rebuild.

    https://www.capitalremanexchange.com/20-facts-you-need-to-know-about-diesel-exhaust-fluid-def/

    https://www.dieselforum.org/about-clean-diesel/what-is-scr

    We are past Tier III heading for IV for heavy equipment operators
    https://www.crossco.com/resources/articles/what-are-tier-4-diesel-engine-standards/
  5. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    Eventually the greenies will have that lowered to cover anything longer than 20ft
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I guess it is good news for used boats between 80 and 120’

    How bulky are the converters for your average 1800/2200 hp engine and how much of that fluid is used at average load?

    the yachting industry is an easy target while cruise ships throw massive plumes of smoke in the atmosphere and so many countries Pollute the world at will
  7. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The on-highway market is so much larger than the marine market, especially when you look at the recreational marine market, it only made sense to address the biggest contributor of emissions from combustion engines first.

    Everything we see in marine is a trickle down effect from larger markets.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The converters look to be about 1/2 the size of the engine, the other issue is much like a Catalytic converter on a car, they get very hot.

    Here's an MTU for example, it's attached to the exhaust:
    https://www.mtu-solutions.com/eu/en/stories/marine/yachts/imo-tier-iii-certificated.html

    I don't know the exact DEF specs but I believe a diesel pickup truck uses 1.5-2% DEF fluid per 100 gallons of fuel.....so 1.5-2 gallons of DEF fluid for 1000 gallons of diesel fuel. It'll be like running an old 2 stroke outboard, but instead of oil mixing with the fuel, it will be cow piss.

    PACBLUE- on highway makes a lot more sense because you don't have to worry so much about the catalytic converter space/size and heat and you have the network that can handle the DEF fluid. Are marina's going to have to start installing DEF fluid pumps? How do you get 1,000's of gallons to a yacht? Hand cart 200, 5 gallon containers of it? It's going to create A LOT of issues for the marine industry and the yacht industry should've just been exempted from it as it is such a small market.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  9. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    Oh, no cruise ships will have to converted as well. That was one of the sticking points with Commission. There were three new LNG cruise ships being built. Carnival to receive first one in November
    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/202...-cleaner-liquefied-natural-gas/9471580331799/

    AIDAnova in Germany and the Costa Smeralda in Finland.
    https://maritime-executive.com/article/lng-powered-cruise-ships-lead-the-way
  10. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    DEF is 32.5% urea and 67.5% deionized water. You can't use cow or human in it - not strong enough.
    Temperature is also a concern with storage of DEF; which has a limited shelf life depending on the temperature. Storing DEF at 80 degrees will reduce its shelf life to just 12 months while keeping it at 60 degrees can extend its usability to 36 months! And, it freezes at 12F. One gallon of DEF lasts 300mi based on otr making 6mpg. Most trucks hold six to eight gallons. Bigger problem is running out of DEF - which sends a warning to the dashboard and your speed is reduced to crawl speed.
  11. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Ok so here in the south with temps running 85/90 degrees outside the ER... you d better build the tank outside the 110 degree ER
  12. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The whole marine industry has had advanced notice of this deadline for years, they can claim ignorance but that is all it is on their part. An infrastructure investment has to be made at all fuel docks that are going to participate in the supply of Urea. Ultimately, the added cost impacts are going to be passed on to the end user.

    I think I heard that Urea consumption would run up to 3% of total fuel consumption depending on the operating load profile. The cost of ownership has just gone up for this class of new boat owners.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Builders were hoping that enough advancements would be made by the engine manufacturers that would've resolved the issue.

    Viking states $500,000 more for a 92' would be added to the cost, so they just dropped their 92' SF and MY. I've heard several other large builders in that size range also have simply dropped the model. There are so many issues with the UREA, from the added tankage in the boat, the shelf life of it once it's in the tank. Where to store it. How to fit the Catalytic converter and the fire risk associated with the heat it generates. Most builders knew about it, BUT were hoping that some advancement would be made so that UREA wouldn't be necessary in the 5 years. Many builders are simply getting out of the 90-120' segment altogether as there's no way to make it work. Take a 92' Viking SF, now you have an added 8,000 lbs of tankage, the extra weight of the catalytic converters and space and heat requirements, the extra cost, plus anything equipped with this (on road vehicles) seems to lose 10-20% fuel efficiency. There's just no way to make it work in that size segment of a planing MY or SF. Many of the existing designs of yachts in that segment are now useless because you can't fit this package into them. Really, pleasure yachts under 500 GT should simply be exempt.

    Here's a really good article on it:
    https://bluewateryachtsales.com/new...ompliance-leaving-yacht-builders-in-the-wind/
  14. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    8000 lbs in a 92 footer is not an issue, that amounts to only 1100 gallons of fuel carried or consumed.

    It is a government flow-down from IMO/EPA. Not going to get a lot of public sympathy for 80 - 90 foot yacht owners, plus many of them are willing to embrace a more greener situation.

    Marine exhaust for rec boats is predominantly wet, it is cooled and not like a dry exhaust system in a car. The SCR boxes have water injection and will be cooler than the engine on some installations and even give you a silencer effect. The best situation will be to combine the SCR unit into a silencer/exhaust muffler in the future. But even today it may allow you to downsize the muffler a bit as it does knock the noise down some,.

    Look at it this way, it creates more billable hours for you, your income potential just went up!
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Tell that to Viking Yachts who is laying off 300 employees because of it. Another U.S. builder I know of is exiting the 90' + arena also as will many others. This is going to have catastrophic events. And yes, 8000lbs in a 92' SF is a lot, plus how do you fish for a month or two in the far Bahamas? Carry 55 gallon drums of UREA all over the cockpit? What about the additional space the equipment takes. It's totally unrealistic.
  17. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    I had a BMW Diesel Wagon with the urea tank recently (twin turbo, peppy little thing)
    No idea it was a big deal like half of the engine size or limited life of the fluid.
    Leased it for 3 years, only had 1 or 2 dealer services, no issue with the urea tank or anything else.
    (VW tried the same tech without urea, didn’t work out too good.)
    Glad the “greenies” are trying to keep the air clean.
  18. Riknpat

    Riknpat Senior Member

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    Beaudouin of France - www.beaudouin.com has the contract to supply IMO III EPA IV engines for New York City ferries. They have 6 and 12 cylinder models. 4 Ferries were launched in April. If you open marine engines on their site, go to the 12M26.3 and open the English SCR leaflet you get diagrams and some info. Not engines for sport fishers but they might be a solution for passage makers and other yacht types. The latest NYC ferries have 12 cylinder engines, carry over 2000 gallons of fuel and 400 gallons of urea. I do not know how often you top up the urea.
  19. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Are you really comparing a ferry to an 90’ boat?
  20. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Well all the US builders can abandon that market segment if they choose to stand by and watch the European builders fill the motoryacht market with compliant product. They will need to find a way to become a supplier of reduced emissions products for the future.

    It will just come down to a redesign , a 90 footer gives up some lower deck space to be more like an older 80 footer, or you need to go to 100 feet to get all that pre tier 4 interior space of a 90 footer. Not that big of a deal.