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What should we do about the sunk Bertram thread?

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jan 14, 2010.

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Do we lock the Bertram Sinking thread?

Poll closed Feb 13, 2010.
  1. Yes - lock it until official news comes available.

    43 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. No - it should remain open for continued discussion.

    37 vote(s)
    46.3%
Thread Status:
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  1. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Guys,

    I posed this question to Lars earlier today. He felt we should lock the Bertram thread until more news came available. I don't disagree, but I don't want to inhibit open discussion. There is much to be learned.

    Tonight, I received this email...

    We have been VERY fortunate to attract some seriously knowledgeable people, making YF a respected medium. Recent events have brought people from other forums that don't have the same ideals.

    I'm not concerned about other people's perception of me. All that is important is that YF remains an 'undiluted' place that we all call home. I'm sorry to bother any of you with trivial direction, but this place belongs to all of us. I'm just here to keep the brainless banter at bay. Recent events has required me to use admin privileges that I've not had to use previously. Ultimately, I'm the fall guy.

    I need the opinions of YF's senior members. This is YOUR website. YOU make the call. Do we lock it or leave it open to potential manipulation? Remember, almost anyone can register and post anything. It's been a full time job to read between the lines and make judgment calls this forum has never been presented with. I've even exercised high level IP address searches to verify identities.

    Feedback is appreciated, but for those short on time, I've attached a poll.

    Thanks!

    Carl
  2. vivariva

    vivariva Senior Member

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    Dear everyone,

    YF is unique. I do not post much but read as often as I could. In the Bertram case, the owner's personal account, the manufacturer project reports and statements, diver/surveyor reports and insurance reports are the things that could be counted as evidence.

    Besides these, there is nothing that we could use as fact. I believe there is too much speculation causing YF credibility damage. As a senior member, I would prefer it locked.

    The fact that democracy is at work here is another tribute to this great site. Cheers Carl.

    Vivariva
  3. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    My 2cents

    Firstly, as a "Junior Member" I am probably (again) over stepping my mark.

    If I may suggest:
    As you so rightly say, a lot can/has been learned from this thread.
    I believe it is now gone over & over about what happened and the tech side and mriad opinions and conjecture.

    Suggest it is locked BUT;

    A new thread started showing exactly the type of Forum this IS and retain its repute.
    This thread should be titled (You are the word man) something along the lines of :
    "Delamination Issues in Modern Boating Construction and what can be done about a) Avoiding it in the first instance and b) How can WE (YF Experts) help those affected.
    NO MANUFACTURERS need be named or targeted as we will need them more than most of your expert members if we want to have a positive result...eventually.
    Just my 2cents
    Thanks
  4. alacrity

    alacrity New Member

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    please do not lock the thread, monitor it, reasonably censor it, but do not lock it. i've learned a ton about (a) delimination, (b) archimedes and bouyancy, (c) phyics, (d) history of construction techniques, (e) errors in construction, (f) liability of captains, brokers and builders, (g) the thinking of big boat consumers, and much much more.

    keep it going, keep in check. BUT PLEASE DO NOT LOCK IT.
  5. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Kafue,

    Your contributions are no less important than our senior members. I asked their direction because these are the people we've all come to know and trust. Based on the posts you've made-to-date, include yourself in that category.

    Will take your advice into consideration, but will be away tomorrow at the Stuart Boat Show.

    Thanks!
  6. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Please close that thread. It has grown to a point of being cumbersome with the same things being repeated over and over by different posters because nobody can keep track of what's been said. I would however suggest opening a seperate thread containing the pics, and legitimate news reports only. That would include about a dozen of the earlier posts. Then lock it except for published news reports, word from the principles or court actions.
  7. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    Hi Carl and all other members.

    I think the thread should be closed at this point. The only thing that any of us can be sure of is that the captain and crew were not as diligent as they could have been nor did they make the decisions that they should have. That the boat was maybe not as well built as it should have been. Beyond that point everything becomes blurry and is based on hearsay, conjecture and innuendo. It does no one any favors to continue until hard facts and evidence comes to the surface, if ever.
  8. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    All these issues can and are covered on a regular basis in other threads.
  9. OutMyWindow

    OutMyWindow Senior Member

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    I haven’t paid much attention to it (boats sink every day) but have perused a page here and there.

    Currently there have been 83,663 views of this topic, these are good numbers for publicity/exposure purposes.
    But like everyone has mentioned, opinions are a dime a dozen, I doubt the answer lies there.
    There is always a story behind the story.
  10. Teddy1

    Teddy1 New Member

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    Location:
    westhampton beach, ny
    I would have to agree that that the thread should be locked. I've followed the thread from the beginning and have gained a lot of knowledge from many posts. I just bought a used sportfish and I feel I have a greater understanding of the construction of my boat as a result of this thread.

    But at this point, everyone is just going around and around and rehashing the same thinks over and over and over and over again. In my junior opinion, it's time to move on.

    I would like to hear when there is new news of any consequence that is released.

    Just my 2 cents, for what it is worth?
  11. PropBet

    PropBet Senior Member

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    Is Everything!
    My $0.02USD

    Lock it up. It's gotten to the point where the OP is such a cluster*beeeeep* that it's lost it's value in gaining any information or being able to read it and follow the events.

    Extract the *facts* that have been provided from credible sources. Yourself, the released video, court docs, letters from Bertram / Mike, FG, etc. and put in a new thread. (or split that thread, but with the length of it, it may be cumbersome to do. But you could gather what's needed in the first few pages)

    Open a new discussion thread or move all of the other dicussion to a 'romper room' thread where people can have their say of witches, goblins, buoys, and sea containers, etc. etc. The only reason I'd leave that thread in place and move all the romper room stuff to a new thread is dependent on how many linkbacks you have to that thread with it's URL.

    As additional facts that come to light, add them to the fact thread. Fact thread should be locked for comments. Let the comments commence in the romper room thread. Which is essentially what the OP has turned into.

    As a bystander, I don't own a Bertram, but I am following it (or trying to) as another "yachtie" as I think it is important to the industry as a whole and other yacht and S/F owners. I have no vested interest in the outcome, other than curiosity. It would be ideal to follow it to a conclusion through a clean, well assembled thread of factual data.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have been following the Bertram thread and a lot of ideas, knowledge on build process, coring, and other aspects have come out of it. It has also brought a lot of new people to the site.......some good......some bad......some indifferent....... I do believe that some people have gotten out of hand at times (myself included). But on the other hand, a lot of good information has come of it.

    I am torn at this point as to whether it should be locked or not.
  13. jsi

    jsi New Member

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    Kill it.

    At this point it is pure voyeurism

    And mostly misguided technical hyperventilation,

    Based increasingly on infighting and docktalk, rather than fact.

    Which is doing neither owners nor builders any good.

    just my .01 (discounted for the euro)

    jsi
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I say LOCK IT.

    If and when you get good confirmed info from the Owner and or his attorneys then at your discretion post that info in another thread.

    If it too starts to attract the single cell posters then Lock it as well.

    The overall standards and your and the Mods oversight of the goings on here at YF make it the leading Yacht Bulletin Board on the net by far in my opinion. It doesn't need to be degraded by flyby night posters who have an axe to grind from the security of their padded cells!!
  15. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    The only reason I voted not to kill it is because it is attracting the flies. Without that, the rest turns to the same substance that attracts them. Let it die a natural death (as it seems to be doing in wandering off into other topics which could be split off into decent discussions vs. the posts of others who flash, flicker, and flee).
  16. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    Carl,

    as one of the young members (25y/o) of Y/F, and considering im also doing my Westlawn course, this thread in particular has been great for my learning and it also put into practice my boating experience, and my hydrostatics, stability, etc, etc study books, and it was one of the great discussion, until about 45 pages into the thread.
    I felt it derailed and became more of a ‘pub discussion’ (no disrespect to anyone), but posting jokes, new members asking question that could clearly been done privately, etc.

    So I agree with NYCAP, K1W1, etc, to have it lock.

    Members can start up different threads in relation to answering new questions that the whole Bertram-Gate brought to Y/F.

    Yet again, great site, and I would like it to stay at the top of all yacht forums. Cheers

    Chris
  17. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I am new here, altough I follow YF for close to a decade

    but I agree with this
  18. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    I'll dissent as well, leave it open. The posters in question are quite obvious for who they are and don't do you any actual damage. You don't lose anything by having some flame warrior trolls and idiots in a controversial (though I'm not sure why it is) thread. OTOH, if you don't let this thread die a natural death, then it looks like "you're in kahoots"... to the kooks. You can't win for losing on this one, but one is you causing the effect, the other is you allowing it. Which way do you want it to appear?
  19. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Lock it but reopen it when you get updates on the case. Too much static even though there is some intersting stuff in there.
  20. MedRascal

    MedRascal Senior Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    I have been reading the Bertram thread everyday, but nevertheless restrained from posting comments, inspite of being part of the industry since 1999 and way beyond as owner, i lack the kind of knowledge to put any kind of opinion on what has really happened.

    I sadly noticed that over half of the quotes posted, are direct insults in-between members that don't do any good. And the other half of the posts are so mixed up with ideas and opinion of all kinds, making the few comments that are really valuable, hidden underneath layers of *BS*.

    Locking the thread won't make any real difference at this point, since its already saturated with more then what was needed. Plus new members can simply comment on it by opening a new "parallel" thread and create more caos. Just what we need to loose more credibility...

    What I suggest is temporarily banning all new members that have registered since the beginning of the "incriminated" thread from posting on that thread or to be able to open new threads. They could still participate and post in any other open discussion allowing them to become more "respected" in the meantime and earn their senior membership.

    This would still allow the senior members here that may have something really important (and valuable) to say about the case, to still let it be shared and read by all... especially by those that shouldn't be allowed to post!!!

    good luck.

    N.B. These are my 2 "euro-cents" ...
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