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Viking 50C: MAN V10 1100CRM or CAT C18 1150 MHP

Discussion in 'Viking Yacht' started by Liberty, Nov 11, 2011.

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  1. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    Hi Everyone

    I am close to ordering a new Viking 50C from the factory, which will be shipped to Australia.

    Just wondering the Forum's opinion on engines. I'm not worried about top speed (our seas are generally to rough for anything over 27kts).

    Choices are their standard MAN V10 1100 against the CAT C18 1150.

    I'd appreciate any advice.

    Thanks
    Nigel
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I really like the Cat C18's and they're pretty much bullet proof. Also I would think CAT has a larger dealer network in Aus than MAN. Maintanence is cheaper on the CAT's than the mans and the CAT's have more torque. However the MANS will be a little quieter, about the same speed, and have less fuel burn.
  3. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Compare service intervals as set by MAN and CAT and figure out the costs over the next 5 years for instance.
  4. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    Thanks guys. I'm leaning towards the C18s but the quieter running of the MANs is a small factor.

    I'm just having trouble getting over the $70,000 up charge for a much less sophisticated product ....
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Instinctively I would say go with the CATS, the service support will be much better in Australia and the oarts when needed will be a lot cheaper and more readily available.

    The only thing I would look at with a view to going MAN would be the continuous rating of the engines and where in the power range you will need to operate the boat the most.

    If you run the CATS above the time limits in the upper power range the service life will be shortened markedly. The 1150 HP is an E Rated engine.
  6. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    "Instinctively I would say go with the CATS, the service support will be much better in Australia and the oarts when needed will be a lot cheaper and more readily available."

    It is generally recognized that oarts are considerably less costly than parts.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Consider this, the price of maintanence parts, the fuel burn 72-73 gph at 80% load with the MANS and 81gph at 80% load with the CATS (both engines), how many hours a year you're going to put on them because MANs maintanence intervals for large/expensive items is on a time basis to stay in warranty(such as clean heat exchangers/aftercoolers etc every 2 years) and future resale.

    The MAN's are quieter at cruise, no doubt. However they lack torque in a sportfish in rough seas, so for example if you have the rpm's set at 2000 rpms, you'll see them drop to 1960 rpms climbing a wave, accelerate to 2020 coming down the wave, and your speed drop accordingly which may be a good thing for ride. If you have the CATS set at 2000 rpms, rpms will only vary +/- 5 rpms in the same conditions. The Cats troll better all day and IMO raise fish a lot better. The MANS have a stinky smell after trolling for a while, not nearly as bad as the pre-common rails but you notice it a little bit.

    If 30+ knots is not a factor is it possible to order the boat with the CAT C18 1015 MHP's for the same price as the MANs? Have you also considered the 52' Cabo SF, it's a nice boat with C18's and cruises at 28 knots with 1015 mhp?
  8. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Options

    70K upcharge for Cats seems a big bullet..do a lot of maintenance for that..and the Cats do need maintenance also...
  9. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Having just written up a quote for the rebuild of a pair of V8 MANs, the price of the parts alone made my jaw drop like a supertanker anchor! :eek:
    As a main dealer for Volvo, Cat and MAN parts I see the price structures on a daily basis but some days I even shock myself.

    Your $70,000 premium for the C18s, over the years, may seem like a bargain.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree, I've had the 1000 hour service done on a set of C18's (including all heat exchangers etc, required by the book, adjusting valves etc) the total bill on a pair came in just under $8,000 and all parts were factory CAT done by Cat certified mechanics. Plus you can pretty much have CAT's warrantied almost indefinately if you're willing to pay for the extended warranties.

    On a set of 1100 MAN's it runs around $18,000 for both engines. Give or take........I remember I bought the stupid coolant recovery tank sensor (which looks like a spark plug, but instead has a 2" long copper probe out of it) that mounts on the top of the expansion tank on a 12v183mtu and it was $383. Man parts are no cheaper, especially with their messy cartridge oil filters with the o-rings and crush washers and expensive secondaries.
  11. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    Thanks very much guys.

    I think I'll chew off on the Cats. Simple is good when you're a long way from home ...
  12. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Hi Liberty,
    PM me and I can put you in touch with the skipper of a Viking operating out of Bayview Harbour. Not sure what engines but the skipper is a nice guy and will do all he can to help.
    BTW, we were fishing off the shelf during the week, just inside of the passing container ships. A MASSIVE marlin had been tagged a few days before plus many large Mahi and yellowfin, so my son and I decided to chase similar in my old 53 Hatteras.

    We saw the Viking out there. At the time conditions were so-so and we hooked 3 good Mahi and a large yellowfin. Then seas got up and as I tend to average 12 to 15 homeward in the bigger stuff we turned back at 15:00, leaving the Viking trolling.
    About an hour later the Viking comes past us at about 25 kn and in spite of the seas, she was travelling as if on a lake!!!
    What a good looking boat.
    I am happy with my old girl, there is no “crashing” into the waves etc, but I reckon the guys on the Viking were sipping their beers without a drop being spilled.
    ENJOY the new boat whatever you chose.
    We are in for a good season I believe.
  13. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    Thanks Kafue, I've sent you a PM.

    Cheers!
    Nigel
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Yes, but.

    Just using the figures supplied in this thread, it looks like over that 1000 hour period the MANs would have burned abut 30,300 liters (8,000 US gal) less fuel than the CATs.

    If diesel in Oz is selling for around AUS$ 1.50 a liter that equates to almost
    US$ 46,000 more in fuel costs to run the CATs. That looks like after paying for the service the MANs leave US$ 28,000 in the owner's pocket in the first 1,000 hours.

    After 3,000 hours the "upcharge" and 3 X 1,000 hour service calls has been paid for and still leaves US$14,000 to cover incidental expenses.

    This assumes that fuel prices won't go down over those 3,000 hours.
  15. lobo

    lobo Senior Member

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    30,300 liters less diesel burnt = about 83,000kg less CO2 produced !
  16. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Just sent a PM
  17. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    Marmot, thanks for the calc. Very interesting. The issue here is that I don't run at 30kts all the time (in fact about 45%) so I've done the usage modelling on annual hours/speed and fuel burn.

    Annually I project;

    Troll/Displacement Cruise 128hrs
    Planing Cruise 104hrs

    Total 232hrs

    Using 72gph for the MANs and 81gph for the CATs at 80%, and 5gph at displacement speed, at our $1.60 per litre, I get annual fuel consumption of;

    MAN $50,000
    CAT C18 $56,000

    So, assuming that the routine servicing costs are the same, then the difference is the major servicing. I am projecting a major service every 4 years.

    After 4 years (1000hrs), the CATs cost $24,000 more in fuel, but $10,000 less in maintenance costs.

    Therefore, purely on economic terms, over 4 years, the MANs actually save $14,000 in running/maintenance costs PLUS the $70,000 lower initial purchase cost, so economically they are an $84,000 better decision.

    So the decision breaks down to;

    MAN
    Quieter
    Smoother
    $70,000 Cheaper
    $3,500 Cheaper Annually
    Less CO2 (for what its worth)

    CAT
    More Torque
    More Reliable
    Easier Service
    Less Smelly when Trolling

    I got to run in two Viking 50s at the Lauderdale show. One with MAN 1360 and the other with CAT C18. The problem here is that the MAN is larger than I need and the CAT was attached to the new ZF drive which were themselves loud. Difficult to get a opinion on noise levels.

    Hmmm that does make it more difficult ...
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The routine servicing costs are considerably more on the MAN's as well. You must use that Mobil Delvac synthetic oil in them exclusively which is pretty pricey. Also all filters and wear parts are about 2x what the CAT ones are. The MAN's are lighter if that means anything.
  19. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    I've been trying to talk myself into the MANs but I just can't do it, so CATs it is. I know which I would rather be looking at if things go pear shaped in a distant location ...

    Does anyone have any further feedback/suggestions on the Viking 50C?