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VIDEO - Sunk Bertram Discussion

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jan 15, 2010.

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  1. tommymonza

    tommymonza Guest

    Well to get back to a reason for sinking and hull failure dicussion.

    I have already posted my idea of what caused the failure and why, but I had an idea last night and this is it.

    Lets give Bertram the benifit of a doubt and say the boat did hit something, and i have the perfect canadiate for it to hit, Are you ready for this, you sure


    A SEATURTLE !

    That would be the most probable thing that they have could hit out there.

    I know because i have drove over 2 of them on seperate occasions and killed them in the Gulf of Mexico.I did not hit them with the boat but the prop definitely hit them because there was a pool of blood behind me like a bomb had dropped.And i have had near misses with i would say 20 of them over the years.

    So back to the collision idea. That area on the port bow looks to Bertram and some others as if that is a point of collision and it does, but i think it is just a spot that perhaps had more layers of cloth in it and tore a little harder than the rest of the bow or is remants of the liner from the anchor well we are seeing .

    Anyways lets say the boat came down into a wave trough and struck a 300 pound Seaturtle surfacing , This is highly possible. So the hard shell penetrates the skin of the port bow down to the core and the captain and crew don't hear the collision happen and continue to speed along.

    So now we have the water pressure driving up into the raw core and slowly delamanating the forward section.If that did happen the boat would have failed on just the port side as that was the only side that was breached.There is no way the core failure is going to work its way around to the starboard bow.Actaully the failure would have worked its way all the down the port side as the water pressure slowly peels the outerskin off kind of like the yellow Bertrams .So what i am getting at is if this scenario had taken place that boat should have continued along with the deck in place until the port bow and side area failed and the vessel started taking on water.

    While we are on that taking on water subject i assume this boat had high water bilge alarms and lights on the bridge.

    But the problem with all this is this was not a slow delamanation caused by a collision and the boat did not come to a stop with a big gapping hole in the port side and the deck still intact.

    The boat went into a wave trough and the forward hull section folded in and back and the redirected water shot up under the already loose deck and blew it back till it failed and the boat came to a sudden stop .

    The main event that caused this catastrophic hull failure was the deck coming unbonded from the hull plain and simple.This could have been hors before but that is the root of the problem. The 2nd failure in the equation is a thin cored hull that could not take the pressure of thousands of pounds of water pressure without the support of the deck.

    If you look at the video it shows a equal amount of damage to the hull on each side.If the port side was compromised at all from a collision the port side would have sustained the majority of the damage. But no the whole boat imploded equaly because the failure from the deck bond failing allowed the hull to implode equally all around which in a way is still odd because who is to say it was running perfectly perpendicular to the waves at the time of failure. If they were quartering the waves one side would have recieved the brunt of the damage.

    Well just something i had on my mind.
  2. Adad

    Adad New Member

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    I agree totally with this scenario.

  3. geriksen

    geriksen Senior Member

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    I agree with this too.

    In the video you can also see horizontal cracking on the lower sections of what is left of the bow on both sides. These cracks appear to be consistent with both sides of the bow/hull folding in. The divers (who incidentally appear to know just where to look) take time to stop and point these cracks out.

    That must have been one hell of a ride for the captain. He has quite the story to tell...
  4. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    while I always think professionals have always something to give, I actually find it strange that most delamination problems of Ferretti Groups boat happen when they are involved.
    Can we have a feedback of an owner, on one or any of FG for Ferretti boat, not Fipa as the company you represent. Which by the way I also admire a lot.
  5. CTdave

    CTdave Senior Member

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    Exactly the reason why this has generated so much attention.
    Everyone wants to know why something like this could happen to a boat built by a company with a reputation of building some of the most solid boats out there.

    If the engine and drivetrain fell out of a Ferrari Enzo wile driving down the highway, the Ferrari message boards would be flooded with questions and speculation as well. It wouldn't have the mystery of a sunken boat, thus adding to the mystery.
  6. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    Liam, I forgot to mention that at the time I had those experiences with Rivas, I was not representing any particular shipyard. I was an independent broker and it was "love all, serve all". And I would add that I actually had a fairly good opinion of Ferrettis, I considered them to be one of the best production boats on the market. This is why I was astonished to learn of all these problems with Rivas which occured shortly after the shipyard was taken over by Ferretti Group. What is also very strange is the fact that I never had similar experiences or heard such stories about actual Ferrettis, only other brands the group had taken over. It's like they still took good care in building their core product but cut corners with brands they later added to their lineup. I don't know if it was a conscious strategy to capitalise on these great brand names or if they were simply overwhelmed by demand (which is possible because when all these new models starting with the Aquariva came out, I know they were suddenly swamped with orders). In any case, I just wanted to say that I find it puzzling because I would have thought that the right thing to do would be to take extra care and nurture a brand like Riva or Bertram. Instead, and I do believe quite a few people will agree unfortunately, these brands have been damaged...
  7. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    ciao Termoli
    I have not much experience with the newer Rivas accept for 2002 Dolce Vita and a two year old Venere which all happened to be good and problem free.
    As for Ferretti Group I dealt mostly with Ferrettis and Pershings. This last has always been IMO so far the best brand of the group.
    While I am new as a member here I suggest that it would be fair for the forum, that when the people posting are representing or working for a Yacht company they should be recognized by this.
    May be YF should think about this...
  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    A person with ethics would always divulge any possible bias or conflict of interest so his comments can be given the proper weight. Sometimes however it has to be exposed instead.
  9. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    Dolce Vitas were designed way before Ferretti Group got involved, I believe the first model year was 1998. I dealt with a 1999 and a 2000 model and both surveyed perfectly. Good and cleverly designed boats IMO because it is a 70 footer than an owner-operator could actually manage by himself. Which is not as easy with boats like Maiora 20 or Sanlorenzo 72 so Riva was spot-on there.

    In all honesty, 90% of problems I encountered were with the 2 models which were directly inspired by the Aquariva - the Rivarama and the Rivale. The problem with the Mercurius was a complete surprise, it's an older model and I always likened it more to the Dolce Vita and the old Opera, one of which I sold as well and she was a good boat as well.

    As for recognizing people who work for yacht companies, I'm not against the idea but would also like to point out that working for a shipyard does not necessarily make a person biased or unfair. I for one am not here to sell anything to anyone, it's very clear in my mind that the boats we make are not the Holy Grail of yachting either, the perfect boat does not exist and how close to perfection it is very much depends on the buyer and how he intends to use it. My parents have a Sunseeker and I know this is not the best thing out there but they use it to go to the beach and she serves them well so anything more would probably be overkill and a waste of money. But when something is very obviously fundamentally wrong with a boat which is intended to be run hard in the ocean, then I believe we have the right to call it and share our experiences whether we are involved with a shipyard or not.
  10. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    yes Termoli I agree on your call and certainly if there is problems with the methods of building the ending person who spends a fortune on these boats should be well protected. There is a lot of numbers and letters when they selll you a boat, and apparently they are worth nothing. The same Bertram gets CE A rating, USCG, may be also ISO9001 and also some class in there and look what are we seeing here.
    After this and hearing this is not the first something should be done to protect the consumer because as you said in your first post luckily it is only a boat which sank, and no one got really hurt....
    You should sell a nice AB Yacht to your family now.... ;)
  11. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    OK NYCAP123, I shall preface all my future interventions with my full resumé even though it's all accessible in my profile. So I don't see in what way I had to be "exposed" since I honestly and openly put this info in my profile which is precisely its purpose.

    Because my occupation makes it very clear that every comment I make is intended to unfairly criticise other shipyards and con people into buying my products :rolleyes:

    So I shall conclude by saying that I believe this Bertram was put together like what some people call a "Med" boat. And that this is inappropriate for a boat whose primary purpose is to run hard in the ocean. Period and I'll leave it at that...
  12. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    I did try, the snake I am :D But that's exactly what they said: overkill for someone who cruises at 25kts only when weather is nice and who uses the boat 50 hours per season.

    So while I honestly believe that ABs are good boats, they are obviously not for everyone...

    Regards to everyone, I hope the Bertram issue gets solved in a way where the owner will stay in yachting and still enjoy boats in the future and where the yard learns from this and moves on to build great boats...
  13. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    From what I am seeing I can't disagree with that. Sport Fish boats shouldn't be built like Med boats. Hell, Med boats shouldn't be built like Med boats. In fact, I have never been on a commissioning that didn't require major alterations to manufacturing failures. With the boat I'm on, we've spent half the cost of the boat new again to get most (not all) the build failures squared away. Even the best boats have issues, that for the money being spent, they just shouldn't.
  14. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    Henning, I own a 63' Predator. Is that a med boat in your opinion?
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Excuse me Super? My statement was in responce to Liam's:"While I am new as a member here I suggest that it would be fair for the forum, that when the people posting are representing or working for a Yacht company they should be recognized by this.
    May be YF should think about this..." Actually I hadn't been paying particular attention to your posts.
  16. jsi

    jsi New Member

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    Med Boat

    Well, Med Boat, depends on your definition......

    jsi

    Attached Files:

  17. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    No, though I haven't dealt with a 63, I've drilled through a 61 Predator bottom and fixed docking accident damage to a 58. There is significant structure there. They are actually heavy boats. The Predators IMO are made to run offshore. The interiors fall apart in about 15 minutes in a rough sea, but they are made to. As the stuff falls apart, you stack it and wrap it in towels till you're done, and then snap it all back together in 45 minutes. First thing I do on them though is put a retainer bar at the foot of the fridges or they fly out and do damage.
  18. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    Great bit of advice, I never thought of that. What about my Leopard? Med boat or not? That thing is built like a **** tank. I guess what I should be asking is, what is your definition of a med boat?
  19. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Mangusta, Ferretti, Azimut, in larger size, CRN, Bennetti.... Haven't spent any time with a Leopard except to teach a new captain on one how to handle jets.
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    :D Fond memories. Had an owner who liked to cook so he packed the fridges to the brim for a Florida run. Just outside NY Harbor into 7' they emptied.:eek: OMG. Ended up doing the same as you. Live and learn.