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Troubleshooting running gear vibration

Discussion in 'Props, Shafts & Seals' started by TahoeJohn, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    It was suggested that I start a new thread on some vibration that I'm getting underway from the port side engine / running gear. 2001 Horizon 76 with 3412e engines and ZF gears.

    Previously I had been working on port-side vibration coming from a worn-out PTO coupling on the front of the engine.
    https://www.yachtforums.com/threads/centaflex-pto-coupling.33973/
    That has now been fixed.

    However, at around 1400 rpms (underway) there is significant vibration coming from the port side. It's fine up until about 1200 rpms and then smooths out significantly at 1600 rpms again.

    I did have a diver check out both props and shafts when we were in Newport, CA, on our way up from Ensenada. According to him, everything looked normal. We ended up running up the California coast primarily on the starboard engine.

    Prior to Ensenada, the boat was shipped from Ft Lauderdale. Of course I can't be sure what may have happened to the boat during transport, but I'm assuming that the diver would have noticed if the prop had been bent.

    Since it's rpm-specific, I can't imagine that it's something wrapped on the prop. I know that vibration has been discussed to death on this forum, but I'm happy to hear from anyone with suggested next steps, particularly anything that doesn't immediately involve hauling the boat and having the prop and shaft removed.
  2. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Can you marrow down when it started or is it how you found her? From what you describe it sounds like it doesn't impede running, so it's possible your delivery crew chalked it up to an idiosyncrasy of the boat or it was disguised by the PTO issue. Otherwise they sure should have mentioned it. When your diver went down did he bring a straight edge to check if the prop was true? From there it could be anything from the prop to the motor mounts. Without hauling all you can really check is the mounts to the shaft log and my rough guess with what you describe is that the problem is outside; prop, strut, cutlass bearing, shaft. If you're lucky there's something wrapped on your prop but I'd think your diver would have seen that unless you picked it up after.
  3. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    I have been down the chasing vibration road. I had a vibration similar to yours at about the same RPM. Mine would also shake when coming off plane at that RPM. It ended up being a loose motor mount.
  4. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Good info, thanks! I'll take a close look at them the next time out.
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Well I m guessing you don’t run much between 1200 and 1600 anyway. Hull speed is probably 1000/1100 and typical cruise will be 1700/1800.

    Motor mounts and alignment could be checked in water and I d start there. Could the shaft have been bent because of poorly placed slings during loading and unloading? Not sure why the vibration woudl smooth out but I ve seen weirder things
  6. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Check the easy stuff first and that can be done while in the water as others have suggested. Motor mounts and alignment for sure. Final alignment has to be done in the water anyway. Keep in mind that it is hard for divers to detect prop issues unless they are very obvious. A gentle bend in a blade is difficult to see underwater. So if you don't find anything obvious with with the mounts or alignment, your next step is a haul-out.
  7. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Yes, agreed. But I'd like to understand what is wrong, regardless.

    A visual of all the bolts associated with the motor mounts (just now) didn't show anything obviously loose. But I'd like to better understand what I'm looking at:

    Screenshot 2021-01-22 114529.png

    What's going on between what I've labeled "Bottom Plate" and "Top Cap"? For example, is there rubber in there bonded between the two?

    The reason I'm particularly interested in the motor mounts is that my mate noticed the other day that the exhaust was really bouncing a lot, and it happens to be supported by a vertical post coming off the rear outboard motor mount on this engine.

    As far as damage during shipping, like I said, who knows. I do know that it was loaded in Ft Lauderdale, moved from the rear of the ship to the front in La Paz, and then offloaded in Ensenada. Lots of handling.
  8. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Okay, makes sense. Since I'm a newb on this stuff... to check alignment, does that involve removing all the bolts on the shaft-to-gear coupling and then using feeler gauges in the gap at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock?
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    That exhaust is a good tell-tale that would point me towards the alignment or mounts. That should be a rubber plate although it could be separate bushings. I've been on a couple boats when the engines were realigned and it seemed a matter of trial and error, but maybe someone who's actually done it can chime in on that. In the mean time maybe you can have your mate watch the gap at the mounts and compare the movement.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It could also be something internally in the engine such as a bent rod or dead cylinder, etc.

    Instead of poking guesses on an internet forum. It would be best to just hire a good CAT mechanic that's good with vibration related issues.
  11. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Not opposed to that, and this was actually my initial request on the other thread (seeking a recommendation for a good mechanic in the San Fran Bay area.)
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I think that would show across the entire range and worse at the top end.
    Hiring a mechanic is most likely where he'll end up, but I've always found that if you can narrow down the source of your trouble it's cheaper to resolve. Plus it'll help the OP learn.
  13. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Basically, yes. And this assumes the cutlass bearings are all good and that you are reasonably centered in your shaft log.
    As I understand it, you have a significant vibration that only starts at 1200 rpm then gets much better after you pass 1600 rpm. My bet is you have a prop issue.
  14. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    TahoeJohn any update or progress in troubleshooting your vibration?
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    if it’s got underwater exhaust, a good chance it’s coming from there too
  16. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Thanks for checking in. I haven't made much progress on this issue... I'm currently in the middle of replacing both thermostats in that same engine, as it wasn't coming up to temp during idle. I did find the problem:

    thermostats.jpg

    On the vibration, I don't think it's the engine itself as it runs through all rpms very smoothly with the gear in neutral. My next step will likely be to have it hauled out and see what that reveals.
  17. T.T.

    T.T. Senior Member

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    Which part of the Bay Area is the boat sitting?
  18. TahoeJohn

    TahoeJohn Member

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    Emeryville. I was thinking that I'll head up to Richmond, probably KKMI, for the haul-out. Any suggestions?
  19. Rusty Mayes

    Rusty Mayes Member

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    I have the boat I'm buying on the hard there now. I have been impressed by the yard in general. I only needed bottom paint and prop shaft seals done so I cant vouch for the veracity of their mechanics. They do allow outside vendors and owner maintenance and access to the boat 24/7 which is really great.
    I had Cummins on my last boat and Volvos now so I don't have a good referral for a Marine CAT mechanic for you. It seems like everyone I know with larger vessels are running Detroit's. Good Luck and if you find yourself in Benicia look me up on B DOCK.
    Rusty
  20. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You also eliminated the motor mounts. When you take it out have someone ride the engine room to check the transmission, shaft, etc. Maybe video corresponding spots on both engines while it's happening. That way you'll know if it's outside or in before you get to the yard. That exhaust and it happening at a specific rpm really makes me wonder though. I get the feeling it's inside, probably alignment. We had a similar situation on a boat I ran for awhile. Didn't make much of an impression on me cause it wasn't debilitating, just an annoyance. An idiosyncrasy of the boat, which would explain your delivery crew not mentioning it. Seems to me we had a mechanic chase the alignment the whole summer and I don't remember if he ever got it right. Long time ago.