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Time for a change?

Discussion in 'Carver Yacht' started by Carver38, Aug 22, 2014.

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  1. Carver38

    Carver38 Member

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    I didn't know whether to post this in the Carver area (which obviously I decided to do) or the Sea Ray area or the "General" forum!

    I have a decision to make and I'd like some advice.

    Last year in November, I bought our Diesel powered 3807 and we spent a lot of time and money remodeling it. It now runs and looks fantastic and we've enjoyed spending almost every weekend on her at the marina.

    BUT.....I'm a guy who likes new toys every once in a while.......

    I saw a 1995 Sea Ray Sundancer 500 that has just over 600 hours on her 550HP DD engines and less than 300 hours on the genny. She seems to be running great.

    She's got a huge hydraulic swim platform and so her overall length is over 55 feet. She's got decent Raymarine electronics and auto-pilot. No bow thruster.

    Inside she's had some updates and remodeling done and so presents herself well for an older boat.

    ANYWAY!!

    I can get the boat for 50K plus my boat. It seems like a "fair deal".

    Will I enjoy a big Cruiser as much as I have Aft Cabin?

    Will the accommodations seem as comfortable? The Carver is like a condo on the water, as you know. The Sundancer is totally different!

    Guys......I'm just thinking out loud......it's a BIG step making a change like this......I don't want to make a huge mistake!

    Just hoping you guys can share some thoughts and opinions. I know in the end the decision is mine but I'd appreciate any advice you guys can share based on your far longer boating experience!
  2. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
  3. Maybe Knot

    Maybe Knot Member

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    We have a 3607 and it is great for entertaining on the aft deck. I have cruised with a dozen on board, but only a short distance (20 mi one way). For 2 or 3 couples to have a drink and even dinner, that aft-deck is great.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The Searays are good boats. I have managed 2-50' Sundancers in the past. They run good at cruise and slow speeds. They handle well and ride softly. The canvas top is usually too low on them to stand up and drive but can be changed. The engine room is easy enough to get around in. They don't have a ton of systems on them and are actually a comfortable boat to sleep on.....the master is almost a king size. They're also easy to dock without a thruster as well.
  5. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
  6. Carver38

    Carver38 Member

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    Thanks for the link to David's article......(does he like ANY boat? LOL!).....

    I read it and found it enlightening, especially his opinion on the 500's sea-worthiness. While I don't see us doing The Loop anytime real soon, I WOULD like the ability to go off-shore a lot farther than the 500 would seem to safely handle. I especially didn't like the reviewer's experience in a bit of nasty weather with the 500. But, he also HATES Carvers, calling them "campers without wheels" and we have thoroughly enjoyed our 3807, not JUST as our "condo on the water" but also OUT on the water, and while we have done primarily coastal hugging, we have hit a couple rough patches out there, which the boat sliced through nicely, (no, it wasn't "The Perfect Storm" and I know by bad sea standards it was on the mild side, but still, I thought the boat was handling what we went through well enough to feel certain it could handle FAR worse. One night we came home VERY late (2 AM) and the ocean was IMHO, "rough" and we pushed on through the blackness of night with nothing more than what my wife described later as "a bit of a scary roller-coaster ride out there" before finally throttling down into our marina in AC. From the article about the 500, I sense I wouldn't have had the same sense of being "ok" on our way back as I did the Carver.

    My wife feels, and so do I, that somehow, inexplicably, our Carver 38 feels "bigger" down below than the 500! I can't explain why we feel that way,since obviously there has to be more square feet below deck in a 50 foot boat than a 38 foot boat. We think it's the way each area ("staterooms", galley and dinette, salon) seems so "separate" and so easily distinguishable from one another, especially with my lovely wife's remodeling , which really gave each area it's own identity. (Different window and floor treatments, etc, unlike before when every curtain was identical, every piece of upholstery the same fabric, every floor covered in the same carpet)

    The 500 is a very slick and, even though only a few years newer, far more "modern" looking boat, both below deck and topside. The Carver does have a LOT of real wood instead of shiny white veneers (which as antique lovers who own a very old home decorated with antiques and very traditional furnishings, we absolutely LOVE), and a completely different sense of "home away from home" to us than we feel the 500 could ever bring to our table. But at the same time, we found many things we DO like, very much, about the 500 as compared to our boat. We like the cockpit entertaining area, we like the big hydraulic swim platform which we feel would put to good use, we very much like the egress to and from the boat, which eliminates the use of ladders we must use on the 3807. I love the fact the engine room is large and easily accessible, and OUTSIDE the salon, instead of UNDER the carpet and furniture I currently have to move all out of the way to do something as simple as check the oil in the engines. (And actually WORK on the motors? Have any of you ever tried that on the 3807??)

    The master bedroom,while it does NOT have the "walk-around" bed we swore we would get in our next boat, DOES have a much LARGER bed, something my wife and I would really appreciate. The master in the 3807 is at best a "full" no matter how many reviews and sales ads you'll see that call it a queen. We HAVE a queen sized bed at home and as I type this in our 3807 master bed, I'm here to tell you this ain't no queen! Maybe close, but short of it for sure! We NEED a bigger bed! The 500's isn't a walk-around but it's absolutely bigger!

    The guest or "day" head with its toilet in the shower is a real turn-off to us but we wouldn't ever be using that shower anyway. (What are designers thinking when they do stupid stuff like that???? Save the space elsewhere!!!) The master head is fine. But again, the 3807 has the 500 beat when comparing heads.

    I also like the layout of the galley and dinette (the 500 doesn't have a dinette at all) better on the 3807, mostly because it's "separate" from the salon, but then, I can also see how I might enjoy when entertaining having the "great room" feeling of being able to chat with guests easier when they're in the salon as opposed to looking up at them from our current galley, if I'd be able to see them at all.

    It SEEMS to me that it will be FAR easier to back the 500 into its slip than the 3807 because of the rear visibility issue, but then maybe I'm wrong. I'd really appreciate you guys commenting on this subject. It's of TREMENDOUS importance to me as docking the 3807 is still very stressful to me, especially if there's even the tiniest bit of wind, which sends me sailing right out of position every time. Then again, the visibility forward from the 3807 flybridge is great....will that be greatly diminished on the 500? I'm going forward a lot more than reverse while boating! LOL!

    Ok......I've done a lot of thinking out loud here and thank you fellas for your patience reading all this, and really look forward to your thoughtful and very helpful insight into this big decision I have to make within the next couple days, if it is to happen at all.
  7. carver350

    carver350 New Member

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    Lake Erie
    Would take a Carver Motor Yacht any day over a express cruiser or as I call them "Cave Boats". Sea Ray express cruisers are dime a dozen and they all look alike.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    David Pascoe is like any of us, just one man's opinion. He has a very specific type boat he likes and everything different is bad. I read his reviews to pick up bits and pieces of useful information, but they certainly lack in objectivity.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The 50' Searay is fine for seaworthiness. I wouldn't say that doing 150 mile jaunt in 5-7' would be fun, but it will take it no problem. Visibility when backing into a slip or any portion of the boat is excellent. It's an easy boat to handle. It feels small down below because of the lack of windows. But I just did a trip with a couple, their friend, and myself on the boat and it never felt small, 7 days. For the money it's a good boat. Make sure the one you buy is new enough to not have the seperate v-drive from the transmission. I think 1996 is past that. You want the v-drive in the transmission.
  10. Carver38

    Carver38 Member

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    Thanks so much for the sound advice! How do I identify which tranny this one has?
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The older style will have a transmission bolted directly to the engine and then a small 1' driveshaft to a remote mounted MPM v-drive and the shaft will go to this v-drive which is located almost right up against the foward bulkhead.

    The newer style, the v-drive is also the gear and bolted directly to the motor. I managed a 1991 and it had the old style and I also managed a 1999 and it had the new style.....I think they switched shortly after 1991.....possibly around 1993.

    Anyways the V-drive has an aluminum case with a bronze cooler through it and there are no new parts available for it and the aluminum case has a tendancy to crack.....do a search here and there is a thread on it. Someone actually made a case themselves with a cnc machine......
  12. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    A '95 boat with Detroits? I'd have expected some other engine brand... and 4-strokes...

    -Chris
  13. Carver38

    Carver38 Member

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    Why is it surprising that a 1995 boat has detroits? Many of the 500's from this era have them. And by 4 strokes do you mean you think it should have gas engines?? Is that somehow preferable on a boat of this size? Sorry, I'm really confused!
  14. Carver38

    Carver38 Member

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    I'm the first to admit I'm a novice at all this and I sincerely appreciate your wisdom guys!

    I'm reading cautionary tales about these engines on this boat (6V92TA rated at 550 HP each in the survey) being short lived. (Under 1500 hours before a major)

    The boat seems to be running fine NOW. Will a DD specialist be able to project future life after an inspection? There are already oil samples studies showing good results.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It all depends on how you run them and a "good" engine surveyor should be able to tell you how much life is in them. The beauty of Detroits is you can easily inspect the cylinder liners and the wear on them. The 1999 I managed has DDEC 6v92s and the 1991 had s+s 6v92's.
  16. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Sorry, didn't mean to alarm or anything. I meant 4-stroke diesels.

    I guess I was surprised because most of the listings I've seen for mid- to late-'90s and newer boats in this size range are usually powered with CATs, Cummins, Volvo, or on the newer end, Yanmar. FWIW, I was equally surprised to read about Capt J's '99 with 6V92s :) And I didn't remember Sea Ray being a big DD installer...

    I'd suspect the 6V92s in that Sea Ray would last forever, though, assuming proper operation and good maintenance.

    -Chris
  17. tommyfmu

    tommyfmu Member

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    We've had two express cruisers, albeit much smaller than a 50' , and now our 325 AC.

    If in snotty conditions, one big consideration you may wish to focus on is your current flybridge being much higher over the water. Getting pounded with tons of sea spray in an express can really be a bummer, eisenglass or not. I know we like being higher on the water when plowing through 3-4 ft chop and feel like we're driving a tank in the 325. Other than that we like the relative shortness of the boat with the AC due to lower dock and storage cost, yet feel like we have just as much room as any of our friends expresses or boats where the engines are under the cockpit.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah Searay did install them in certain models. I think they basically picked one engine (Cat, DD) for a certain model and only built the boat with that engine. Like all of the 54's had Cats........So since they introduced the 50' in 1991 they had picked D.D. and stayed with it till the end of the run around 2000.
  19. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Hours

    The one red flag that nobody seems to have picked up on is that 600 hours in 19 years. Is that SMOH or original hours? I'd want to see at least 1,500 to 3,000 hours.

    The 2nd thing I'll note is that you mentioned that you've enjoyed sitting on your Carver at the marina. With an express you're more living in the basement. Although the 50 has a nice cockpit area, the feel for hanging out is totally different. That's not to say bad. Just completely different. If you have any friends at the marina with an express, do you hang out more on your boat or theirs, and how do you feel when hanging on theirs for long periods?

    The Dancers will be faster than your boat and handle more easily, but I'd still recommend adding a thruster for when you get into a tight situation.