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That old conundrum...Power vs Sail ???

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by Mirabella V, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    I read this forum often, and have only occasionally posted. We just got this new video so I thought I would share it with you, and perhaps reignite an age old discussion. Clearly I am very biased, and hopefully you will appreciate my comment are somewhat tongue in cheek. Anyway, I know that I will be swimming upstream on this board, but here goes.

    Click here to watch a short video which is still being edited (shot 2 days ago)

    If you thought that looked like fun, then welcome to sailing, where boats are designed to move with silent grace.

    However, if you are wondering where the helicopter landing pad; or basketball court; or submarine; and/or the third, fourth and fifth decks are; or why that guy steering has such a big grin on his face, well then you had better stick to power, where moving is expensive and noisy, and sitting at a dock is the main sporting activity.

    Notable exceptions to the members of the darkside for me are WallyPower, most 100ft+ motor yachts more than 60 years old, plus the Riva Aquarama (and some of its clones). I will gladly inhale fumes from any of these, any day. I also have to accept that Feadships are beautifully crafted ships.

    There will be some real sailors who will shudder at the thought of Mirabella V acting as their poster-boat, but she is greatly outnumbered by powerboats in this segment of the market. She exists to challenge mega-power boats in the charter world by trying to offer a sailing alternative, so there have to be compromises.

    Anyway, hopefully none of you will take this too seriously. Happy sailing to ALL....even without sails!

    Joe (jr)

    [​IMG]
    Picture by C. Alexis Andrews, off Antigua, Feb 14th 2006
  2. Rene GER

    Rene GER Senior Member

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    The video doesn't work for me. I have tried to use:

    - Windows Mediaplayer
    - Win DVD
    - VLC Mediaplayer (the first 3 seconds are okay)
    - Realplayer

    Does anyone have a solution?
  3. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    It's a .mov file René so it needs Quicktime.
  4. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Hi Joe,

    Glad to have you onboard the YachtForums. I must say that I am surprised that sailing yachts are still outnumbered by the motoryachts? But I guess this will continue to change with growing awareness of our environment and the increase in fuel prices.

    I have 50/50 experience with sail and power and think that both has their advantages. To cross an ocean I will always prefer a sailing yacht. But with limited time for fun, I also appreciate to use motoryachts where you can move pretty swift between different ports, sometimes overnight and wake up at a new place!

    Ideal is off course a powerful motorsailer, or maybe one of each kind... ;)

    This ketch http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/5719-post10.html was a design I made 9 years ago, I actually showed it to Joe Sr at the time Mirabella V was still a glance in his eyes, but I relocated and we lost contact.

    I know it must be a lifetime experience to sail on Mirabella V, but in retrospect, do you think she is the ultimate large sailing yacht, or would you recommend somebody in the same situation to go for a smaller sloop or a ketch instead?

    /Lars
  5. Coenharbour

    Coenharbour Senior Member

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  6. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    Hi Lars:

    My point about the number of sail versus power yachts should be seen in the context of boats over 200ft. There are few sailing yachts in that range, but many power.

    I took a look at the ketch. Nice work. However, don't forget that all our boats are charter vessels first and foremost. For a 180 footer you will need at least 10 crew, and so am unlcear which cabins are for crew and which ones are for guests. Also I am not sure about those cabins below the waterline (from an MCA perspective). She has nice lines, and I assume a swing keel?

    Anyway, in answer to your other question, I have no idea how to measure the ultimate sailing experience. I think that for many people (incl my dad) a sloop is the most natural sailing experience, and I notice that the trend in the racing world has moved away from ketches. I think we have a unique product to offer people who want to charter very large boats, so I would be hard pushed to suggest that they go elsewhere!!!

    Joe
  7. Ladies choice

    Ladies choice New Member

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    If you have to ask.....

    In my never ending search of what it is I am seeking for a yacht for my partner and I,

    I was wondering, what is the cost to build such a yacht like this or the 180 foot ketch Lars drew up?

    Then after the building costs what about maintaining it? How often are sails replaced? How large of a crew will it take to run? Is the draft so great for the size that it restricts movement, and on the opposite side , what about the height of that mast! , There must be fixed bridges that you are unable to go undernieth as well?


    I have been looking at those very yachts you speak of to hold a chopper, sub and assortment of toys.

    I am starting to think to leave the toys, chopper and sub at the estate instead where it is much easier to use and launch and the reefs surrounding the island where we live part time are some of the best anyways in the world.

    Then go with either a smaller motoryacht, something quick like a wave piercer or where my heart has always laid, in a sailboat.

    My partner though becomes quick seasick and that has forever been a issue in decisions of what to do or buy.

    I have always owned some sort of sailboat and more often then not when taking guests in the past I am returning to the dock prematurely for a bad case of seasickness and that was just going offshore in Florida a mile or two!
    I cannot imagine what agony it would be if we were few hundred miles offshore and someone become deathly ill.

    So what have you found with charter guests on the issues of seasickness, and getting thier sealegs when they are more landlubbers then sailors?

    What angle of heel is normally sailed on such sized yacht?

    Thanks in advance for any insight you may be able to give to me

    LC
  8. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Thanks Joe,

    This ketch was designed for an experienced owner who, like me, don´t like to have a lot of guests onboard. He never charters so there are just three main cabins, one for staff and the remaining for up to ten crew.

    In your position things look difference and I know the smaller Mirabellas and have arranged charters for the first one too.

    My last question was more about, if an owner should like to build a megasailer tomorrow, would it be better to build a 60 meter ketch than an 80 m sloop? But I fully understand if you stay away from such discussions...;)

    /Lars
  9. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    Dear LC

    Too many questions! You need to talk to experts. I do no think you should contemplate a build project based on what I have read so far. It is a long road and requires full commitment and certainty. I suggest you chrater a few boats first to figure out what you really want. My father always says, "smart people charter boats, they don't own", which is funny given how many he owns. It's basically a never ending headache and you have to be really passionate about something to want to stick it out.

    My wife was a major league land-lubber. But she found the Relief Band works very well. The reality is that bigger boats don't move around as much, but it is still there. Mirabella rarely heels more than 10 degrees, and you really feel it at 15. Her computers will let go of the sails (release the sheets) at 20 (never happened, probably never will). It may not sound a lot, but at 50ft wide you certainly notice it. However, heel itself doesn't make you sea sick, but it can worry less experienced sailors. It also can take a few days for sufferers to really get their sea legs, so a day sail is probably not a good idea.

    The video was shot with a bunch of real sailing buffs aboard, incl Ron Holland the designer, so they knew what they were doing. I think at one stage she gets over to around 12. She is moving at 17-18 knots.
  10. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    Lars:

    Probably a 60m ketch. But there are so many variables..like probable location of the boat, type of sailing, etc etc.

    The reality is that boats are as much an artistic expression as they are a piece of engineering. So it's really hard to answer without knowing the owner's initimate preferences. I am sure you'll agree, there is no one boat that will satisfy every person (I hope not or you're out of business).

    My answer was based on ease. There are plenty of 57m Perinis, all ketches. People seem to like them, and the technology works and is within the boundaries of the technology available and understood today. Mirabella redefined those boundaries, but at a cost, which is that every day we learn something new.
  11. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Yes, I agree on that, most owners wouldn´t even dare to build a large one-off sailing yacht. But if they like what they see in a Perini, a Jongert or a Wally, they do not hesitate to order a near sister ship.

    This is probably also one reason why you see more big motoryachts, it is not at all the same technical challenge to go up in size...

    /Lars
  12. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    Scopalamine

    Ladies Choice,
    As a captain on a large motor yacht, I can't really add much to this discussion other than to say that sailing yachts definitely dominate the industry when it comes to elegance and beauty.
    I do, however, have a suggestion for your partner. The transderm scopalamine patches that you place behind your ear work wonders. Any doctor can prescribe them and one patch is good for three days. It may be a way for you both to enjoy yachting.
  13. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    Mirabella V Video

    Thanks for the video Joe.
    I've been stuck in the boatyard for a few months so that was a fun and much-needed fix.
  14. CNRocks

    CNRocks New Member

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    This is great -- anybody have any video of Athena, Jim Clark's sailboat recently profiled on this site?
  15. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    Eric

    Awesome video, you are 100% right ...that's real sailing, although it's more like windsurfing. Can't see the old girl catching a wave like that! Lots more great video like that on sail.tv

    Great job on answering LC's questions, some of which I neglected to answer earlier. So LC, on draft, we have a lifting keel, so we can draw as "little" as 13ft up, or 33ft when down.. The keel weighs 150 tons (that's the weight of a Boeing 737), and takes about 6 minutes to raise. So there are quite a few places we can get into, including in your neighbourhood, the Port of Palm Beach, where we visited last year. Unfortunately, due to US regulations, it is unlikely that we will ever come back to US waters. The mast is a bigger problem, since there is at present no bridge on the planet that we can pass under, including the Bridge of the Americas, which therefore rules out the Panama Canal. That's one point we concede to the power boat guys.

    Joe
  16. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    The VOR racers are certifiably insane! (And ****, I forgot to watch the weekly recap this afternoon...) I watch the race via their site hourly during the legs, but seeing footage on TV is one better, even if it's a week old. I also started a VOR thread in the Yacht Club section of the forum for anyone that wants to discuss the craziness. :D

    Edit: Ooops, guess we can't say d@mn...
  17. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    I always wanted to know what is the min.depth of the intercoastal in flordia ?
  18. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    ICW Soundings

    Min Intracoastal depth in Fl is supposed to be 8 ft but I draw 7 1/2 and know that I have to cross certain local areas at higher tides. It drops to 6 feet somewere in the keys. The Army Corp Of Engineers offers a good site with actual soundings though http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/nav/index.html
  19. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    Joe Jr. I was just going to check out the video again, but the link posted at the top of this thread is a 404 now. Is there an updated link?
  20. Mirabella V

    Mirabella V New Member

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    Try this

    I hope to get another one out soon of the Monaco GP viewed from the crow's nest.

    Joe