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Repowering a series I (1978-1986) 60' Hatteras...

Discussion in 'Hatteras Yacht' started by VikHatBer, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    Anyone know of a successful engine transplant on an old model 60' Hatteras? I like the older 60' Hatteras' more; I like the lines, plus they are overbuilt and nearly a foot wider. They are all equipped with 12V71 DD engines. I am a MAN engine guy. I want to replace the aging Detroit's with either V12 MAN 1360's or V12 MAN 1550's. The engine room on the 60' Hat is more than adequate, I have heard of one successful transplant on a 60' Hatteras w/ Cat 3412's (bigger, bulkier) so I'm sure it can be done...

    I am aware of hull speed, and how that is limiting on older Hats. I don't expect 40 knots, but can a comfortable 24-25 knot cruise and a 30 knot max be attained with either 1360 or 1550 hp MAN engines on an older 60' Hatteras?
  2. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Welcome to YF, VikHatBer:

    Sounds like an exciting project you have in mind. Lighter MANs with more HP should get you the speeds you're looking for.

    You might keep in mind, however, that when Hatteras got tired of getting left in the dust by other mfg'ers back in the '80s, they didn't just stick in more powerful motors: in 1986, for example, that 60 you are considering received balsa-cored hullsides to shave weight, and beefed-up stringers to handle the bump up from 650 to 825 HP Detroits...all of which netted them 2-3 knots at both cruise & WOT (low twenties). <----Powerboat Guide numbers.
    Not sure about the Sixty, but various other Brand H SF models at this time (designated HP for 'High Performance") with their previously deep keels had a slice shaved off the keel bottom to reduce wetted surface....with an attendant change in handling characteristics. That's a lot of jiggery-pokery to gain a few knots of extra speed, but not unexpected for an 'overbuilt'--your words--boat with high freeboard and otherwise non-aerodynamic appearance.

    Will all that extra HP require larger shafts & struts & wheels? Different engine beds?
    I would advise professional help (and I mean that in the nicest way) along with substantial dollars + patience.

    Good luck and send plenty of pics.
  3. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    Thanks for your response. I like the older 60' Hats as they are nearly a foot wider than the newer versions of the 60. However, I would never tolerate a "shortened keel" on my boat. Those keels that Hatteras installed in the 80's were one of the boat's most important features. I also know that the later versions of the "Series I" 60' Hat had a modified hull with what seems like shallow prop pockets - obviously intended to boost performance. However, bored out 12V71 825 HP Detroit Diesels are not going to push a that heavy tank of a boat much faster than regular 12V71 650 HP DD's...

    Do you know anyone else on this forum who would be willing to throw ideas or advice my way?
  4. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    I guess I miscommunicated, sorry.
    Hat DID get a couple of extra knots from stronger 12V-71s. I was not suggesting YOU do that. Yes, go with MANs.
    Advice: find a naval architect (likely) or find a yard that has repowered an old 60 Hat with 1300+ HP engines (not likely due to cost/complexity).

    On pockets: when the boat starts to get heavy, a fat (high numerically) reduction ratio is required which leads to BIG props which require pockets, an effect, but not the cause, of more performance.
  5. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Hi and welcome to the forum.

    As a Volvo Penta salesman I have to say have a look at the D12 Volvo range, I think even a supercharged D9 will be a bit weak for a Hatt 60.

    We fit D12's to loads of 60/70 footers and have had no problems with them. We are also CAT dealers and have had no end of problems with them. I have to say the MAN looks a good match for the Hatt, it just depends on the re-power package you can get from the yard.

    As Loren says, get in touch with an experienced Naval Arch or a surveyor.

    Cheers

    Fish
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    You may not like my answer but you'd be better served going with CATS then MANS in that boat. The CATS have a lot more low-end torque and that is what you need to keep that boat up and running at a constant cruise speed in a sea. Anyways, you would probably see the gains you are looking for and a lot less hassle in regards to shaft size, struts etc. By going with either C-18 CATS (10 cylinder 1015hp) or 10 cylinder Mans (1100hp), you'd be making a heck of a lot more power (HP and Torque) then the current 12v71's you have and it would also be lighter. Trying to stuff 12 cylinders are not necessary IMO and you aren't going to gain any extra speed over 10 cylinders, just a lot more fuel consumption and hassles with regards to shaft size, tightness in the engine room and other changes. I think you'd be really surprised at how fast the boat will run with 10 cylinders and more efficient.
  7. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Don't know where you are getting your info but the C 18'S I have dealt with to date have only had 6 Cylinders.

    The rating quoted above is an E Rating (High Performance) which means that you can run at full noise for a 1/2 hr every 6 hrs.

    The C 18 is proving to be a good lump and I am happy to specify them to my clients as Genset Engines, I have no experience using them as main propulsion engines.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Actually you're right, they're 6 cylinders

    The 1015hp version is the only version you'll see in the new sportfishes built by Hatteras, Cabo, Bertram etc. They are very strong and good running motors. A lot of low-end torque. Considering the 825hp 12v71's really only made about 750hp by todays standards. He'd get the performance he's looking for and it would be a great match. So would 1100 hp Man Common rails. You'd lose weight over the Detroits, they'd fit in the engine room nicely, and the boat would perform probably better then expected.

    I've run both in the same makes/models and the cat's will keep a constant RPM in a sea, the MANs will vary rpm as much as 50rpm's between going up and down a wave etc. The man's are a tad faster (1knot faster) and a few percent better at fuel economy. However maintanence is a lot more expensive on the MAN's. Either choice would be good. I think 1300-1500 hp engines would be way too much for an older 60' Hatt. You'd probably get better economy per mile at cruise versus the detroits with c18's or 1100 common rails, whereas bigger would net worse economy and less range.
  9. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    I bet those 6 cylinders are quite large. I wonder what the hull speed is on a 60' Hatt. I guess I would have to contact a retired engineer from hatteras to get that info... I hear Hatteras's current plant is marred by incompetence and mismanagement. I don't see how putting 1300 HP in an 60-foot 82,000 lb boat would be considered an "overload". They put 1360 HP in a 52' Viking (INCREDIBLE) and it doesn't sink...
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Talk to Cecil Meadows at the Hatteras factory- He is the Senior Construction Manager and is still there. He knows everything and will tell you everything you need to know. I spent a week at the factory after the Brunswick takeover and yeah they had a decent amount of 15, 20, 25 year people leave, but I wouldn't say they are marred by incompetance and mismanagement. They have been turning out excellent sportfishes and motoryachts that have run faster, and handle better then before Brunswick. Hatteras used to do EVERYTHING by trial and error before, and they had lots of errors. The first few 63' MY's in 2001/2002 wouldn't get on place so they added the humps inside of the tunnels for lift. The first 63 hatteras MY they sold, the swim platform sat 10" underwater full of fuel and they had to cut the boat apart and add a tank to the bow of it. Hatteras always gelcoats their boats in the mold, but then has to paint them because the condition of their molds are not good because they sit outside in the rain and snow.

    You won't get any more speed with that hull with 1300 or 1500hp diesels over 1000 or 1100 hp diesels in that hull. It doesn't have the hull speed. You can get the hull speed with an extension on the vessel and add about 5 feet to the transom. You'll actually get 24 knots with what you've got for power. It adds more flat surface and they run flatter.

    The vessel's stringers and whatnot were not designed for that type of power, neither was the size of the engine room. Also, you'll have to change A LOT of things to shoehorn those engines in. Shafts, struts, props (also you can't add much diameter to the props on that boat because of their proximity to the hull, so you need to add a ton of pitch), exhaust size. With 1000 hp, you don't need to change any of that and can change the shafts to splined shafts without changing size (no keyway) and have the props splined and be good to go.

    After all of the expense you might as well buy a newer 54' Hatteras that does 33knots at cruise, if you're going to add 1350-1500hp engines.
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    The 1015HP C 18 has the following dimensions:

    Length 61.3in, 1558mm
    Height 46.4in, 1178mm
    Width 41.6in, 1056mm

    Approx Dry Weight 3788Lb, 1718 kg
  12. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    I was referring to the actual cylinder size, they are probably huge if it is only a 6-cylinder... I am not sure of the specs on the 12-71's engines that are in most 60' Hats, but I'm sure they're quite a bit larger and heavier than the C 18. The Hat' 60' has a huge, cavernous engine room. I am 6'2" and there was still air above my head standing strait up.
  13. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    The C 18 is only fractionally bigger than a 3406 and approx 150 kg heavier for the heaviest model.

    Bore is 5.7 in, 145mm
    Stroke is 7.2 in, 183mm
    Displacement is 1108 Cu in, 18.1 lt.

    A 12V 71 would have a displacement of 852 Cu in, 13.91 lt.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    They put c-18's in 45' Cabo's. I wouldn't say they're really much if any bigger externally then 12v71's IMO.....
  15. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Here's a comparo:

    The 12V-71TA has the following dimensions:

    Length 65.6in, 1650mm (to the flywheel face; add 22in for the gear)
    Height 52.4in, 1331mm
    Width 49.8in, 1265mm

    Approx Dry Weight 4340Lb, 1969kg (without gear)
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It looks like the C-18s would be a good match. Smaller on all dimensions then the Detroits and he'd lose approximately 1000lbs between the pair in weight and gain an extra 400-500+ HP over the Detroits depending on the HP of the 12v71's he has. 1100 Common Rail MANS would be a good choice also. Although they'd be my second choice. I have seen a lot of engine sensor problems with the Common rails. The Engine sensor is the same part number for coolant temp, oil temp, and a few other facets. And I've seen several of them need to be changed and go bad on seatrials and engine startups that I've done.
  17. boblucas

    boblucas New Member

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    I'm pretty sure that the 3412 powered 60 Hatteras is still living at Old Port Cove. Name of the boat is HOME RUN. The current owner did the repower. I believe she cruises in the 26-27 knot range. I'm sure that Mark or Suzie could put you in touch with the owner. Very nice person, former baseball player.
  18. Silverado6x6

    Silverado6x6 New Member

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    http://www.**********.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8879&highlight=cutting+hull+engines

    add ********** to the blocked address, I don't know why it wont post the link, rivalry?




    Here is a link to another forum I frequent, it has pictures of a 65' Hatteras MY that was converted to MTU Series 60 from the Detroit 12V71, I cannot get the image to come up so you will need to see it there, I am thinking of buying a 58 Hatteras Triple that has the same engines and was considering this same approach because it was originally a triple cockpit and the owner opened the aft area so its now a double.
  19. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    No way! You're from Wasilla, Alaska? Have you ever met Sarah Palin?