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Proteksan-Turquoise YOGI superyacht sinking investigation

Discussion in 'Turquoise Yacht' started by Marmot, Sep 9, 2012.

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  1. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Further to Mikes emphasis on training, good results will be achieved if drills can be done in an interesting manner and the post drill de briefs should not be crucifixions of those who might not had done everything perfectly first time.

    If things are made interesting people will pick it up a lot quicker than if they hate it and don't want to be there.
  2. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I think in this case, New delivery crew.
    This could also be a captain issue. Knowing the weather was to be bad (NOT hurricane), new crew, maybe not a complete briefing, maybe no drills, Maybe should have stayed in port?
    On those inflatable door seals, I assume it takes an experienced person to operate the seal correctly.
  3. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    K1W1
    My point is not really an engineering point but operational, and perhaps cautionary that is really the point of this thread.

    These things are very popular as they enhance the enjoyment of the yacht; ease boarding from the tender in comparison to the 'old gang plank'; provide for crew access and service while minimizing disturbance of the guest; provide for ease of crew access to and storage of various recreational and service equipment, and; even make yard and service access easier. But even with the most careful engineering and protective systems... and training of the crew.... things happen.

    One mistake can lead to a chain of events resulting in tragic circumstance... that is the point. Whether that probability is such that is rare and considering the benefits acceptable is a matter of personal choice. However, I do not believe owners, in particular, really consider the downsides as well a responsible Captain or accident investigator might. Owners drive the industry and they are people accustom to getting their way, and everyone top to bottom in the industry are subservient more or less to that situation.

    Why it is important that these accidents be FULLY REPORTED and the results SHARED is to prevent future such occurrences. That prevents future mistakes by education of the entire community.

    Sadly, maritime accidents are not investigated to the extent of aircraft accidents... nor generally regulated as well. This leaves open lots of questions and uncertainty.

    I suppose I am a guilty as any... with a canting keel fetish. Despite the well know and tragic failures in mid ocean! Just goes to show.
  4. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Though this is a little off subject as to this accident. I mentioned in my last post "canting keel"... and thought you all might be interested in reading this report on an accident at sea regarding a failure of the type of thing I was referring too.
    http://about.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=16967
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    26 yrs earlier a fixed keel fell off DRUM during the same race.

    Fastnet Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I haven't seen any moves to ban them yet do guess a risk assessment would indicate that they are no more dangerous than any other underwater appendage doing what it was designed to do.
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    What am I missing here. I'm just a lil redneck tech, but I fail to see any connection to the Yogi demise to a snailbote loosing it keel during a race. Blessed that all were able to gripe about it afterwards.
    I can only assume that the comparison is the racing comity (prompted) came up with recommendations for safety while sailing/racing vs. a power boat delivery???
  7. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Sorry about the snailboat distraction... I know its against the rules.

    As to the Proteksan-Torquoise:
    Seems like owner and yard would want the truth to be known.

    Air Safety investigations would include deep sea investigations and a complete professionally done investigation... if they were commercial carriers. If it was a private plane... the same would be done but the expense of the deep sea might preclude the decision to investigate if the cause could be reasonably determined otherwise... this would be quite close to the example of the canted keel failure from the 2011 Fastnet Race reposted here.

    http://about.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=16967

    K1W1 should be vindicated as to swim platforms...etc... as the five crew that were separated from the capsized boat were rescued by being lifted from the water a few hours later by use of a hydraulic SWIM PLATFORM.

    However, it seems Marine accident investigations are more challenging as the rules are older and less defined. I am not sure on this but it appears the case. I certainly cannot say it would be good to have more regulation but in the modern world just leaving everything to chance or the involved parties is a opening for lots of problems including crime. The Yacht Fire off Miami thread nearly everybody first thought it was some crime... insurance scam, drug related or something else. This is indicative of a common realization that regulations are loosely enforced or overlooked. Here in this thread that fear is what is driving it. I hope the truth is known and the delays are related to something relatively benign. Although, I cannot imagine what that is as everybody needs to know in the yachting community. Why is simply to prevent it from happening again if the cause was preventable. It looks so far unfamiliar crew... some failure or combination of problems... boat sinks.

    Simply we need to know.
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    It is beginning to look like the report has also sunk.
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Marmot....

    It means... they forecasted the dissemination of the report in mid Dec. 2012.

    The Frenchies are pretty punctual but it could be a month later... particularly with "Fêtes de Noël"... as it is an estimate and my experience is that can be +/- 30 day deal. So get concerned it January 20th comes around with no report.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
  10. joyful

    joyful New Member

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    Just had this:

    The preliminary report (confidential document) is in the consultation stage untill 21 December by the interested parties (shipowner, shipyard, crew members, American Bureau of Shipping, French administration, etc.).

    Consequently, the final report will not be published before mid-January 2013.


    So almost buried, but not yet sunk. I wonder if the final report is at all modified from the one presented at the consultation stage.

    On the insurance side their have been rumours circulating that the French owner has claimed for very valuable works of art that went down with the ship. Has anybody seen the interior and know what these, if any, might be.
  11. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Well, see they were punctual and accurate... Promised to "disseminate" the report mid-December. So mid December the report was disseminated for review by the parties involved. And, the public "release" will be in mid January.

    After first coming to France 40 years ago... I found the Napoleonic System is always accurate as possible; true as possible, and; very precise... in an aggravatingly French way... always reveled after the fact. And, it always makes sense after you think on it a bit. Try being married to one... you might as well accept you are always proven wrong and... most always politely its your infantile understanding at fault... of Frenchie ways... and it is made clear after the fact.

    The word they used was "disseminate", exactly what they did... but to the affected parties! They did not use the term "parution" which means to release by "publication" inferring public release. Nor did they use the term "déclenchement" to release by "opening something sealed". Nor did I see either the act of "libérer" which is the act of delivery or "making clear".

    It was "diffusion" = "dissemination" but that infers more like pass around and that has inference of private review.

    "Prévision de diffusion du rapport définitif, sur ce site, mi-décembre 2012"

    See the mistake you made it the "sur ce site" assuming it would be "on this site"... common mistake for Anglos... it really means "this site" and nowhere did I see the term "figurent sur ce site" which means "on this site". SO the guess of actually what "this site" is inferring.

    So being totally clueless and confused.... asking the love of my life...
    What she explained... "It is obvious":

    "They are announcing the review by the affected parties via this site in mid December 2012."
  12. Felipe

    Felipe Senior Member

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    How many sunken boats have the French? Do they have that much work they cann't stick to an already generous timetable?
  13. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    It is not the workload causing the delay.

    It is the CYA infection that permeates all facets of life today.

    The yacht business has changed immeasurably because of it in my opinion, whilst some is good a lot is needless beauracacy and this often results in long drawn out meetings, conferences and other hot air blowing exercises while an all encompassing bullet proof set of undies is fabricated for release.

    With an insurance company involved and claims for priceless artworks a lot is riding on this. The gentlemens clubs and golf club bars are probably very busy at this time.
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I wonder how long the coverup would last had Yogi taken the child of some UHNW charterer to the bottom instead of artwork?

    It is incomprehensible that the charter marketing business is not demanding answers. They will be among the first to get sued when one of their clients is fried or drowned.
  15. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    One must never forget the one of the prime moves of Government is to show "leadership", usually transforms to adding regulation to protect the public from itself and thus create new form of employment grossly overpaid and under worked and thus serving the public who pays for it and when the public runs out of money for all those wonderful programs then the Government will, on your behalf borrow endless streams of money to fulfill those obligations which in reality, most of the public did not want or need in the first place.
  16. Felipe

    Felipe Senior Member

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    You are absolutely right Marmot, the charter brokers, through its representatives, should have been at the forefront of this case since the beginning, but they are nowhere to be seen. Maybe is because many of them are also involved in other areas of this industry, and often find themselves with conflicts of interest that nobody seems to aknowledge.
  17. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    In my long sad.. and aggravating experience:

    The French and Anglo bureaucracies are functionally self serving...

    French is slightly more logical, formal and by the letter of the rule book and this comes across as arrogance.

    Anglo is slight more corrupt, unpredictable and willing to bend the rules and this comes across as arrogance.

    You get the same result from both but:
    If you are French you think the Anglo system is insanely frustrating.
    If you are Anglo you think the French system is insanely frustrating.

    And, in neither the SYSTEM is always right.

    But I have noticed with the French they are more willing to accept than the Anglo... but whether this is due to a belief in the rules being upheld or as they are basically "Peasants and Communists" as my Anglo relatives insist... ou à la "Fraternité"... as the love of my life insists...

    Thinking on it... it seems the same to me... !
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012
  18. joyful

    joyful New Member

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    This has been quite a long process and the French authorities were supposed to publish the results end of November. They are now talking mid-January.

    The rumours of the sunken priceless artworks have not been substantiated - I would be interested if anybody from the forum has seen the interior or read any reports on the artworks aboard.

    Apparently the French authorities have not had to cover a superyacht report before because nobody registers their yachts in France if they have sense, they are mostly registered in various British offshore tax havens (don't you love the way the Brits are complaining about US companies like Amazon, Starbucks and Google moving their profits abroad when all the wealthy Brits and their companies like Vodafone do exactly the same).

    As for the superyacht industry and brokers and charter brokers, it has been mostly silence since the sinking of Yogi.

    Up until now very few awkward questions have been asked (to the MCA, the designers of Yogi, the surveyors, the brokers and consultants involved in the build, the builder etc) because surely they cannot put it all down to 'operator error' as I suspect they will.

    Even if the crew had had better training, a ship built to MCA should surely never sink because an exhaust valve failed and/or a door did not shut properly. There must be water tight bulkheads and pumps and emergency pumps to cope in such a situation.

    If there are not proper safey rules, then what has the MCA and the surveyors and builders been doing for the last 10 years. What chance after this of a yacht being insured for a zillionionare to charter safely.

    Once the report is published, whatever the blame, I do hope that the superyacht industry will not continue in the present silence about the sinking. If is does, then hopefully this forum will break the 'conspiracy of silence'
  19. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    A watertight bulkhead is not water tight if a door is not closed and sealed properly.

    People seem to be under the impression that building to MCA and Class is some wonder solution to all possible perils.

    Whilst the MCA, Class and Flag all have their own fields or responsibility, the rules and regs each abide by provide for minimum standards which in most cases can be improved upon at a cost to the vessel owner.

    Understanding how ones systems and vessels works goes a long way to averting catastrophic incidents like this one.

    Crew Experience, Qualifications, Training and Drills taken together in a proper manner is the surest way to have the best chance to be able to deal with the unforeseen that happens on a dark and stormy night.
  20. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    I do a few deliveries a year on a 100' private vessel. This boat is littered with sensors for ALL portlights/hatches and ALL bilge pumps, and it wouldn't be to the same class standards as Yogi... So there's no way these guys could be that darf and leave a door open...

    Maersk has only 13 crew, I'm pretty sure Yogi was fine with 8 crew! :rolleyes:

    Far