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New Boat w/wo captain...potential charter?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Val Smetka, Mar 3, 2021.

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  1. Val Smetka

    Val Smetka New Member

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    Long time lurker, first time poster. I will warn you, this is a long post! I have read a ton on this forum and THT forums as well. The advice is excellent and much appreciated. I still don't quite know what I don't know.... which scares me, and I would like more information. The more data, the better I think.

    First, my history. I have a captains license from when I was 16 in Croatia and over 1500 hours until I was 24 on a 40' flybridge boat that our family owned. Since then (15 years), I have only owned a Hobie cat for 3 years and sailed multiple sailboats from 36-46 feet. I also have every sailing course certificate known in the US sailing association courses. I have no other powerboat or catamaran experience.

    We want to eventually get a Nordhavn and go around the world but that is about 10 years out - due to work. In the interim, we would like to get a used 50-70' (3-4 cabin) motorboat with a flybridge and keep it in Miami and spend 10-12 days a month on the boat traveling to the keys or to The Bahamas or staying at the dock to get away from the cold. So, to start this journey I reached out to a well known insurance broker (thank you all on this forum for the recommendation). No luck getting me insured on a 51' flybridge without a full-time captain for the first year. Ok, I can accept that. Ideally the boat would be under $1.2M and 2010 or newer.

    So, my questions are:
    1. With a full time captain, would you want a boat with a "crew" quarters? Is this a deal breaker? Most of our trips will be 1-2 couples so should have 1 cabin open anyways.
    2. Would you consider getting a "limited" charter insurance policy (up to 14-20 charter weeks per year - depending on carrier - with a MAX of 6 passengers per the insurance policy) and charter the boat out (weekly - NO DAILY Charters) to off-set some of the cost of the captain and boat (depreciation, boat as a business etc)?
    3. Is a 50' Flybridge boat appealing for weekly charters or is a 70' boat more likely to charter in Southern FL?
    4. I know that on average a weekly charter vessel when it gets up to "speed" is able to charter 12-14 weeks a year, but what's the realistic number in the first year and second year? I suspect 2-3 weeks?
    5. What don't I know, that I should know? Any and all input is appreciated.
    7. I understand the 15-20% of the boat value as an annual cost rule and that's ok, unless you think it's more or less than that
    8. Any other questions that I am missing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Val
  2. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I think you are way off on charter expectations. Not many weekly charters happening in Florida. In Bahamas yes but 70.’ Is very small. Great boats are doing 6-10 weeks a year. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking you will offset costs on this size boat by chartering. Buy want you can afford and enjoy.
    Val Smetka likes this.
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Ask again if you'll need a full-time captain or just a captain when you cruise. That may effect your decision on whether to charter or not as you'll be looking for write-offs. On most of the boats I ran I was part of the family and given a SR. On one 65' there was a crew quarters (more a dungeon). Didn't stay with that boat long. On another the owners always got a hotel room for themselves and I got the boat. Once the owner's and I got hotel rooms and left the boat to the guests. You won't find many reasonable crew quarters on less than 70'. Sounds like you'll be spending a lot of time aboard. Add to that down time for maintenance and is it really worth the hassles and expense of setting up and managing a charter operation? No doubt 70' would be more appealing for charter. You might get 4 SRs or 3 + crew which in that case would then accommodate 6 guests. Most smaller than 60' will be 3 SR and one of those might be kid sized. So 4 passenger + crew which increases the cost per passenger for the charterer, again making the smaller boat less appealing . The MAX 6 passenger rule isn't by the insurance company. It's by the law.
    Val Smetka likes this.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Excellent initial post. You have been thinking this through. I see that you suspect 2-3 weeks a year charter is the initial norm and that's good. For now, let's forget the charter possibility.

    Crew quarters are potential but the crew quarters on a 50' or so boat aren't something I'd expect any professional captain to spend 12 days on, much less longer. Best to have a stateroom that can be the Captain's. At 70' crew rooms are sometimes ok but still other cabins are better.

    You have two very viable options. One is hire a full time captain for the year. If you're boating 10-12 days a month, they'll be busy all the time. Average worker works 22 days a month before time off so take 4 weeks a year plus 8 holidays and you're down to 20 days a month. That leaves 8-10 working days and he'll need many of those to keep the boat in perfect shape if he does things like washing and waxing and cleaning on top of maintaining systems and dealing with issues.

    The other option, if you boat less is to hire a yacht management company and then use available captains which they may have or otherwise found for the trips.

    Might also be a good time for you to renew/update your license. Go to a school and find out what you'll need to do if interested.

    About you needing a captain for a year. I don't buy that. I think it might be nice but I know some insurers will insure after you've adequately demonstrated skills to a knowledgeable captain. I think you very well might be insurable much sooner. Now, I don't know that I'd recommend exploring the Bahamas without a captain as there's so much to learn. There's the waters, the routes, the places, but the people, the resources. Captains can get dockage when you can't or rent you a CC or find a pilot for a marina where one is needed or advise on restaurants and make reservations. For the Bahamas, Captains are also great tour guides. A captain can also teach you all you don't know so find a good teacher. Ideal is even to have them when selecting a boat although don't allow their personal prejudices to unduly influence you.

    50' and 70' are equally unappealing for charter. They do some business but no boat introduced to charter will start off great.
    Val Smetka likes this.
  5. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Perhaps different definitions of “Captains Licenses”.
    In the US it usually means you are a Proffesional Mariner and can take people or cargo out for hire. (You are a paid Captain)

    I guess you Captains License from Croatia, at age 16 was some kind of permit to drive a small boat for pleasure?
    (Up to 15 meters?)
    Val Smetka likes this.
  6. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    If I am you with your purchase budget, RTW goals and ten year time line...
    I buy the Nordy now, put her in FL, hire a captain if need be as needed, get your two weeks in the sun, cruise FL and The Keys.
    Get your Nordhaven all sorted to take off in ten years.
    Now you know the boat and are more ready to circumnavigate the globe.
    The only catch I see in this plan is that you want a $2MM Nordhaven as your eventual boat.
    I would not charter my boat. I would not buy a boat that chartering be required to keep her afloat and maintained and ship shape.
    Val Smetka likes this.
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I m surprised you are having a hard time getting insured for 50/55 footer if you have significant experience on a 40’ FB unless that was a very long time ago. Especially with experience on 40 ish monohull and US Sail certificates. But as others have said, having a captain for a few months will teach you a lot especially in the Bahamas

    Charter market in SoFl for weekly charters is very limited. The keys are not very friendly for boats over 50’ with a lot of shallow waters and few “scenic” anchorages with beaches and nice sandbars. Great with small boats though especially for fishing and diving. You re never going to get more than 3 or 4 weeks or weekly charters in the Keys / SoFl even after a few years.

    Chartering a boat in the keys costs as much as chartering in the Bahamas where the scenic factor is 20 times better. Only difference is having to fly there but right flights to Nassau are under $200. Round trip.

    Week charters on anything under 60’ are going to be hard to do because of the limited space. You need a captain and a mate/stew/chef. So with the typical 3 SR layout on a sub 60 footer you will likely be left with only 2 guests rooms. And still have to deal with limited storage and refrigerations

    the bulk of the charter market in SoFl is 12 pax day charters but the quality of the clientele has dropped in the last few years. You probably don’t want these booze, twerk and trash folks on your boat...
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  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    12 pax requires certification. So you're not going to do that legally with most boats in that size range. Most of those I've known who charter in that range are liveaboards looking to write off some expenses, not make profit, and that can open issues with the IRS. One other thing to consider is that "Fish and house guests tend to stink after about 3 days" and that's the best of them. One wrong guest, a few rainy days or a sea sick guest and the For Sale sign will go up on the aft deck. If you want to charter stick with day charters. Much easier to plan, cancel, provision and keep track of expenses for, and at the end of the day the guests go home. If it were a money matter I'd do a fractional ownership situation before chartering. Like having the whole year's charters booked. no passenger # restrictions and easier bookkeeping.
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    If the bareboat criteria are met, you can do up to 13 people legally on a boat under 100GT. You just have to follow the rules. Once you hit 100GT, you can do 12 passengers as an Uninspected Passenger Vessel

    The power boat day charter market in SoFl is mostly groups of 12. The only boats chartering with no more than 6 are fishing charters and sailboats

    I don’t know when is the last time you have had experience with charters in SoFl, but obviously it has been a while. As I have mentioned many times the market has changed drastically. To suggest sticking with day charters in SoFl shows that you have been away from a while.
  10. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Legal bareboats can carry whatever the boat's capacity is...if you dare. It's their boat. But as you've pointed out before, they're cracking down on pretend bareboat charters. I'm not suggesting any charter, just giving the OP options.
  11. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Nope... max capacity of a bareboat MY is 12 guests plus the charterer.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Correct. Is that new?
  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    afaik, no.
  14. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I never looked that up before, no need, but a bareboat charter is basically their boat so I'm surprised. Think that's followed at Haulover? :rolleyes: I know it's not in Lake Havasu. You added to my education. Thanks.
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    As I have mentioned in other threads, the USCG is finally cracking down. They stop at least a couple of illegal charters a week here in Miami. It s always the same thing... over 6 pax under bareboat but without following the rules. Either the owner is the captain, the charterer was not told he had a choice of crew, only one basic charter contract, or all inclusive charter (incl fuel, food etc).

    The problem is that the law hasn’t followed the evolution of boating. 30 to 40 years ago, a 50 / 60 footer was big and few were chartered. Nowadays a 70 footer is an average boat... what needs to happen is lower the 12 pax UPV bar from 100 GT to 50 GT, possibly with additional restrictions like having a second crew on board.
    Val Smetka likes this.
  16. Val Smetka

    Val Smetka New Member

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    Thank you all for your replies and keep them coming. It sounds like there isn't much of a market in S. Florida for charter and also sounds like charter really wouldn't work for us anyways due to how much we plan on using the boat and the amount of time the captain works. I do agree with the limited space comment on boats less than 60' and really under 65' to be honest.

    Thanks again and I'll keep updating as our search/purchase gets closer over the next 4-8 weeks.

    Val
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I don't even like staying at B&Bs cause I feel like I'm in a stranger's home, guarded. So I definitely wouldn't be one to charter a small boat except maybe bareboat. I think a lot of people would feel that way. So it's definitely a limited market. Good luck. Sounds like you have an exciting spring coming.