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Mad mission: Trans-atlantic

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by ClassicK, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    Hi folks,

    I've just signed-up as I am planning on purchasing my first power yacht after years of childhood dreaming. I drive a small express motorboat once every year or so, so am familiar at the helm as a starter.

    I have my eyes (heart) set on the 2017+ Sunseeker Manhattan 52 or 66 with a nautical range of ~450-550nm respectively. However, after I have spent the first 6-12 months or so kicking around making smaller trips around the Med as a practise, I really have this mad dream to cross the Atlantic from the UK to say, BVIs or New York. Alone.

    Which brings me to the problem. I want a yacht small enough to manage myself, but that leaves me with the range issue. And putting the fuel reserves issue to the side for a moment, can this style boat handle oceanic conditions?

    As an alternative, the Sunseeker 86' yacht has a 1500 nm range, although 86 ft feels like too much boat for a day-to-day basis. I plan to spend a lot of time on my vessel and want the ease of being to take it out and go as a I feel.

    Would love to hear your wise old 2 cents.

    Cheers,

    K
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    No, no, and no.

    Neither the 52 or 66 or the 86 is a trans-Atlantic boat. That's if they had the range, which they don't.

    Add to that you're not in any way qualified or experienced enough to cross the Atlantic alone. I don't believe anyone should attempt to cross alone even in a capable boat as, in my opinion, you're not capable of maintaining watch at all times and that is important. Do you understand how many days are required to cross at 10-12 knots?

    Now as to the boats you mentioned, the 52' is a great one person boat and the Manhattan 52 I think is one of the best new designs I've seen. As to the Manhattan 66, we did the loop in the Manhattan 65 and loved it, but one reason we sold it was that we like the 66 better. However, while many get the 66 with plans of owner operation, that means two people and cruising on it with no crew would be very tiring. I would think you'd end up feeling more like crew than owner. While it's easy to operate any of these and one person could even take a trip on the 86, it's definitely not what I see for owner/operator if cruising it heavily and I think needs a crew.

    You're looking to fulfill two mutually exclusive desires. If you want a boat that can easily be single handed and that is capable of crossing the Atlantic, you're looking at a KK or something similar. Even then I don't believe in single operating on a long trip requiring sleep.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    A motor yacht <60 is not going to make it, even with a good current.
    Look at what the seasoned people are doing, sailing and averaging 4 to 6 kts on a rare good crossing.
    Stay in the med with the MY, You want to cross, get into LSD; Long range, Slow speed, Displacement.
    By the time you arrive anywhere, you will be even more nuts. At that speed, it takes a rotating crew for watch cycles.

    Soon, these single hand sailors that get in trouble will be asked who and how watch was kept. Demanding watch records.
    Of course they will fail that question and cost & fines will start coming down on them for rescues.
  4. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    Thank you Olderboater, your reply is fully of genuine insights.

    :(

    I appreciate your safety warning and concern. I know I am not in in anyway qualified experienced now. I mentioned spending 6-12 months full time yachting in safer conditions first, but even that is more of an issue estimate really just designed to evaluate my skills at sea... even after that time I wouldn't make the trip if I felt unready (even if I had a capable boat to do it in).

    That's a really useful insight, and not one I would have obviously figured out, as the jump up from 52' to 66' doesn't seem like a huge one.

    Well said, and puts my idea into perspective.

    Could you kindly give me an example model I could take a look at?

    Overall, the Manhattan 52' sounds perfect for everyday life, although I wouldn't be keen on staying round the Med. Would you consider it the 52' good for island hopping around the Caribbean and even up the west coast to New York? Eventually I'd want to get it over to LA ideally.
  5. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    Thanks for your response. Out of interest, let's say the smaller yacht somehow had fuel capacity to cover the trans-atlantic, what would the other significant dangers be?
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Well if you try to go up the West Coast to get to NY, you're going to have a very long trip.
    If you're very careful about weather windows and willing to wait a lot, a 52' can get you a lot of the places you mention. However, for the trip to LA and cruising the Caribbean, I'd go for the 66'. Use a captain until you learn. Then if you want, use a mate or deckhand. Or at least plan on paying to get the boat washed and wiped down when arriving. Otherwise you'll spend your days working instead of enjoying. Now, I don't know your mechanical capabilities at all. If you're not knowledgeable, that may be your longer learning curve for single handling.
    As to smaller boats that can cross oceans, KK, Fleming, Nordhavn, Outer Reef, and Defever are among some that have done so. Personally, I'm not bold enough to cross in any boat under 80' but I know people who have crossed in KK42's and many in Nordhavn 62's. Mostly it takes a displacement hull and most have a small single engine with perhaps a wing engine. But let's say you love a Nordhavn 6. Now, do you want to be limited to 6-8 knots when cruising at home and do you want to live with a 6'8" draft which eliminates the Loop and makes timing tides essential on the ICW.
    As to small semi-displacement and planning hulls, in typical ocean crossing conditions they'd make you so sick or miserable you'd have a "For Sale" sign on them before you arrived, although a bit foolish to even discuss with their lack of range. Any of the smaller boats will handle a lot worse conditions than you can. A 66' Sunseeker can handle 10-12' seas but I don't know anyone who would like to be on one for more than a very short time in such seas. Crossing the Atlantic you could hit 20' seas or even 30' or greater. Unlikely, but highly likely you'll see some days with seas over 10'. In those boats, even 72 hours consecutive at 6-8' with short periods with 25 knot winds would be miserable.
    The majority of people who cross oceans do so on sailboats. Most ship their powerboat across.
  7. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    Is it just a matter or range? Also, you previously mentioned the 66' Manhattan would take a lot more work to manage single relative to the 52'... if you don't mind explaining where added difficulty comes in?

    For a variety of reason's, including initial cost and running cost I would prefer to 52', but if the 66' would open up more options geographically speaking, then I would have to give it more serious thought, although being able to manage the boat solo would remain the primary influencer.
  8. bobhorn

    bobhorn Member

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    There's a guy on M/Y Dauntless, a Kadey Krogen 42, who has crossed the Atlantic going east, solo, and then crossed back, did the canal and is now going up the west coast to Alaska and then on to Japan. A lot of it solo and some parts with one crew.
    Can be done, not by me though.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The 66 vs. 52. Most on a 66 need a second hand for docking and locking where one person can easier do the 52. Washdowns, waxing, all cleaning tasks are probably 60-70% more work, not the 33% you'd think if all you considered was length. You have beam and height influence.

    Your lack of experience would mean quite a while before you could manage either solo, but longer for the 66. I know experienced captains who will not move a 66 without a second hand. Yet, some owners are comfortable doing so.

    Now, let's talk rough water. Again, the 66 is 60-70% more boat. The 52' weighs 59,000 lbs., the 66' weighs 82,000 lbs. The 66 will handle rough conditions better than the 52.

    You will see boats equal to the 52 in the Panama Canal. None of this is saying they can't do it. However, it's really a moot argument as you cannot get beyond the fuel shortage and range limitations of the 52. You'd have to carry 500 gallons of fuel in bladders. That's a lot of bulk and 3500 lbs. They would have to be mounted to they could withstand rough water and wouldn't move around.

    Some things give you an indication of what kind of cruising the manufacturer thought the boat was appropriate for. With the 52', the fuel tells you "short cruises".

    Yes, there is a significant cost difference both new and in operating. If your desire is to cruise the world though neither of these is right. If it's to cruise the US and Bahamas, then either can work.
  10. jsschieff

    jsschieff Senior Member

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    There is a boat company that specializes in long-range powerboats called Nordhavn. Many Nordhavn owners have taken their boats across the Atlantic or in some cases around the world. I believe the company web site may include links to Nordhavn owner blogs about their ocean passages. Several Nordhavn owners run their boats without crew up to 60' long.
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Forget the transatlantic. Buy the 52' Sunseeker which seems to meet your needs and desires, which a slow trawler does not. Enjoy the MED with it and then put it on Sevenstar or Dockwise and ride on the ship and do the transatlantic that way and it's cheaper and SAFE. Dockwise you can ride on the ship for sure, Sevenstar does as well I think. Yes, a 52' would be good for Bahamas and Carribbean if you pick your weather. 66' even better, but you're going to need another person and it is a lot more work. You should always have a second person on board for safety, or if SHTF (fire, major mechanical issue, really bad weather). Nobody can safely cross the transatlantic SOLO, no way to maintain a safe watch. Lots of people get away with it, but it's not safe.
  12. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    If you have to come here to ask the questions.... the answer is "hell no". Crossings are to recreational boating what Everest is to hiking. Only after you spend a lot of time practicing and learning the skills on easier terrain, and understanding the equipment can you, for yourself, answer the question.

    I started messing on the water 58 years ago. I have not crossed on the water, (about 1500 crossings in the air, but that's different) but I have thousands of miles under my belt on open water, much of it solo, all of it on sail boats pretty well equipped, and operated with due caution. I can talk about what kind of boat and equipment would work in that environment.

    I have not played with power boats enough to have the same discussion there. But, from what I can see there are very few boats that are not large that I would take too far out on the lake. The Nordhavn mentioned above seems to be one of them. They are not cheap.

    Go out and learn..... Keep your stated goal in mind and decide when, if ever, you have the skills and the knowledge to do so.

    Oh, the "no one should be out there alone, watch schedules etc etc" is blah blah. There are plenty of solo mariners that are quite capable of operating safely. There are plenty of crews that shouldn't be allowed to leave the dock.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    There is NO way a person can do a transatlantic solo and maintain a safe watch at all times. Nor is it safe for any of the things that may and do occur during one. Mechanical breakdowns, fire, rough weather, etc. etc. etc. etc.
  14. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    Thank you everyone for your kind feedback. I am chuckling a little t myself over the 'if you have to ask, then NO' replies. Just because you're exactly right, and I am aware that even asking the question puts me in the 'not ready camp' (even if the yacht was capable, which I realise it isn't). But hey, that's just where I am, but all the information returned has been really help and specific.

    I have also looked at the Bering 70 Tempest (https://www.yachtforums.com/threads/in-build-bering-yachts-70-coastal-passagemaker.23499/) and have been told about the Fleming 55, both of which have great range relative to the Manhattan 55'. Ultimately though, I feel you guys here have got it spot on; for now my boating interests and capabilities are like the Manhattan 55's sea capabilities...better suited to something shallow :D

    Well I'm only joking about shallow, there's nothing wrong with wanting a sexy yacht that can be lived-off and travelled in. I think for now, and for a good while to come, I would be content with cruising round the BVIs, living off my yacht and taking trips to St Barts etc. All the while getting more comfortable at sea as with the mechanics of motor boats so I can make my own choice about upgrading to a transatlantic vessel.
  15. ClassicK

    ClassicK New Member

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    When I say living, I don't mean full time.. but certainly for some prolonged periods