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Loran C

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by BMS, Feb 10, 2010.

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  1. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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  2. Ward

    Ward Senior Member

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  3. wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

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    My parents had a 60' steel houseboat we navigated around the Bahamas with Loran A. You lined up the two signals in an oscilloscope and read the time difference of the readout then looked up the TD line on a chart. I thouight Loran C was really cool because it gave you actual Lat/Lon. Also used a Transit Sat/Nav receiver in the 1980s on a 48' DeFever. Really makes me appreciate GPS.
  4. jbk4001

    jbk4001 New Member

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    """Dear Fishing Brethren ~

    Well, curiosity has the best of me-and I was told by the chief in charge of Loran in Washington DC, that at exactly 1500 hours on February 8th our beloved Loran was going down forever.

    That got me thinking--Does that mean at exactly 1500 hours, better known as 3 PM that the screen will go blank?-Or possibly will it just blink for a while before it completely dies like my uncle Louie, or will it immediately croak??
    What are the options here??
    Will a big picture of Nancy Pelosi show up on the screen instead??-Or possibly Karl Rove?
    Or will it be a Budweiser ad or an ad for McDonald's to help subsidize our national debt?
    I am not sure--I am not sure??

    I think we should all have a big going-away-party for our wonderful Loran.
    Yes, rent the top of the Waldorf-Astoria and have a big Loran extravaganza- Yes, fill the place up with Lorans , have them all turned on at exactly 2:59 PM on February 8th--and wait for the 3 PM demise of our wonderful guiding light for all of these years, yes, the magic of Loran C!!!

    But then again, maybe I will just have a couple of guys over at my house-and watch the demise over a pizza.
    Yes, there is a sadness to me over this-but I guess that is the way of the world.
    However, whenever the passing of someone great occurs, oftentimes a eulogy is in order.
    Therefore, as being the unofficial Mayor of the Hudson Canyon for many years- I will take on the responsibility of saying goodbye to our beloved Loran.

    My condolences-my condolences---my condolences.. Mike-DESIRE


    Ode to the Guiding Light of Our Directional Mishaps

    Gosh I'll miss those Loran numbers great,
    on every exciting fishing trip offshore.
    On every wreck, with my strip clams of bait,
    dreams of 50 pound cod fish, and so much more!

    Beautiful were the Canyon days at 100 square,
    Yellow-fin and Big Eyes to our heart's delight.
    Every fishing trip with dreams beyond compare,
    lasting from the early morning’s sunrise, all through the night.

    Only fading memories now are the Bacardi at 308/308.
    rest in peace my tile fishing at the West wall 090 line.
    A wonderful system called Loran has finally met its fate,
    now GPS has taken its place, but for my old Loran, my heart does pine!


    Ode to the Guiding Light of Our Directional Mishaps


    G osh I'll miss those Loran numbers great,
    O n every exciting fishing trip offshore.
    O n every wreck, with my strip clams of bait,
    D reams of 50 pound cod fish, and so much more!
    B eautiful were the Canyon days at 100 square,
    Y ellow-fin and Big Eyes to our heart's delight.
    E very fishing trip with dreams beyond compare,

    L asting from the early morning’s sunrise, all through the night
    O nly fading memories now are the Bacardi at 308/308
    R est in peace my tile fishing at the West wall 090 line.
    A wonderful system called Loran has finally met its fate,
    N ow GPS has taken its place, but for my old Loran, my heart does pine!"""
  5. jbk4001

    jbk4001 New Member

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    I thought some of you would like this...

    """Thank you for your kind words Philjam ~

    The tragedy has happened at 1500 hrs., 3 PM on February 8th. The heart stopped beating, the pulse went dead- Loran is gone!

    Like a dying relative, I had to be at the deathbed at the moment of transition.
    I went out to my boat at 2:30 PM-to watch the final moments of life of a dearly beloved friend that has been so important to me for so many years. Woven into those numbers is the soul of John Demeno, the magic of Jon Festa, and the memories of so many great fishermen who came before us and have gone to Loran numbers which live in the mystery of the great beyond.

    At about 2:50 PM the 2600 line disappeared-The nerve of this government with all of the taxes we pay that in the last moments of a 3 PM promised departure, they took away my dearly beloved 2600 line 10 minutes early, not giving me the decency of the last 10 minutes to say my full departing goodbyes.
    Up fighting for its life automatically came the 1400 line-defiantly full of life, trying to take over as a slave in the bold attempt to try to keep life into the Loran system protecting the legend and memory of its brother 2600. Defiantly fighting to keep the family together. Kind of like when you go close to a lobster pot at the Canyon and those Mahi’s, small as they are, start attacking your boat in defense of their turf.
    But alas, before too long the magical 1400 line, home of The Fish Tales and Atlantis canyons also was slaughtered.
    Yes, now it was only the 4300 line, as the 5900 also disappeared as well when I looked for it, and now it was only the 4300 line holding on for dear life of the Loran system, searching on its own, hanging on for dear life. It was 3:15 PM and in defiance of the entire Government of the United States of America the 4300 line said for all to hear "Don't Tread on Me!"

    And finally, yes finally-like a beautiful Big-Eye tuna making its last death spirals around the boat before it's date with the destiny of death, the 4300 line fell as well. Alas, the last SEARCH line of defense, the last in the lineage of the 9960 Loran family slaves went to sleep forever.
    LIVE, LIVE Loran !But it was not to be- Yes, at about 3:30 PM February 8th, 2010 the last life of the great Loran system, the magical 4300 line fell victim to the massive onslaught of GPS technology.
    Can you imagine a government, the greatest power in the history of the world-cannot find enough money to keep a duplicate LOng Range Aid to Navigation system running?

    When one thinks of the national debt, all the money that has been spent and wasted, much of it lining the pockets of Wall Street money manipulators who have drained our country, massive perks for politicians, and we cannot find enough money to keep some Loran towers going?
    Well, one must go with the flow they say-but there is something about this flow that has me thinking the flow of the river of our beloved country is heading towards a cesspool. Sorry for my cynicism- Please understand, I just lost a dear friend.

    Enough said, I must lay a wreath on the dearly departed and my dearly beloved Loran.

    Thank you for letting me work out my psychoses on all of you-- but there is also much truth as well in the above story of Loran. """
  6. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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    Ode to the Guiding Light of Our Directional Mishaps


    G osh I'll miss those Loran numbers great,
    O n every exciting fishing trip offshore.
    O n every wreck, with my strip clams of bait,
    D reams of 50 pound cod fish, and so much more!
    B eautiful were the Canyon days at 100 square,
    Y ellow-fin and Big Eyes to our heart's delight.
    E very fishing trip with dreams beyond compare,

    L asting from the early morning’s sunrise, all through the night
    O nly fading memories now are the Bacardi at 308/308
    R est in peace my tile fishing at the West wall 090 line.
    A wonderful system called Loran has finally met its fate,
    N ow GPS has taken its place, but for my old Loran, my heart does pine!"""



    Ha Ha that is funny!!! I remember using it with my old man when I was a kid on the Bay and the Eastern Shore off VA. But my granddad I know kept compass headings but it seemed to me at the time he just pointed the bow west and looked for somthing familiar on shore (thank god for plotters). In the CG I know we used to use it because of the commercial fishing boats used it, that was in 2004 I wonder what those guys are using now.

    Let me ask this. When I am old and gray I wonder what my grand kids will be using for navigation. I wonder if they will be saying "my grandpa is still using that old garmin chart plotter its like 2060"
  7. CSkipR

    CSkipR Member

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    GPS to suffer from awakening sun - bring back Loran

    GPS to suffer from awakening sun
    By Jason Palmer
    Science and technology reporter, BBC News

    Researchers say the Sun is awakening after a period of low activity, which does not bode well for a world ever more dependent on satellite navigation.

    The Sun's irregular activity can wreak havoc with the weak sat-nav signals we use.

    The last time the Sun reached a peak in activity, satellite navigation was barely a consumer product.

    But the Sun is on its way to another solar maximum, which could generate large and unpredictable sat-nav errors.

    It is not just car sat-nav devices that make use of the satellite signals; accurate and dependable sat-nav signals have, since the last solar maximum, quietly become a necessity for modern infrastructure.

    Military operations worldwide depend on them, although they use far more sophisticated equipment.

    Sat-nav devices now form a key part of emergency vehicles' arsenals. They are used for high-precision surveying, docking ships and plans are even underway to incorporate them into commercial aircraft.

    Closer to home, more and more trains depend on a firm location fix before their doors will open.

    Simple geometry

    The satellite navigation concept is embodied currently by the US GPS system and Russia's Glonass network, with contenders to come in the form of Europe's Galileo constellation and China's Compass system.

    It depends on what is - at its root - a simple triangulation calculation.

    A fleet of satellites circling the Earth are constantly beaming a radio signal with two bits of exceptionally precise information: where exactly they are, and at exactly what time.

    A sat-nav receiver on Earth - or on a ship or plane - is equipped with a fairly precise clock and the means to collect signals from the satellites that happen to be in its line of sight.

    It then works out, based on how long it took those signals to arrive, how far it is from each of those satellites. Some simple geometry yields its position.
    # 1. Satellites advertise their exact position, and the precise time at which they are sending it
    # 2. The signal travels through the outer atmosphere, the ionosphere; its speed depends on how much the Sun's radiation and particle winds are affecting the ionosphere's composition
    # 3. A receiver on Earth determines how long the signals took to arrive from a number of satellites, calculating the position from the time differences

    But those signals are incredibly weak and, as researchers have only recently begun to learn, sensitive to the activity on the Sun.

    Solar flares - vast exhalations of magnetic energy from the Sun's surface - spray out radiation across the electromagnetic spectrum, from low-energy radio waves through to high-energy gamma-rays, along with bursts of high-energy particles toward the Earth.

    The radiation or waves that come from the Sun can make sat-nav receivers unable to pick out the weak signal from satellites from the solar flare's aftermath.

    There is little that current technology can do to mitigate this problem, with the exception of complex directional antennas used in military applications.

    Sat-nav receivers will be blinded for tens of minutes, probably a few times a year at the solar maximum.

    Charged up

    A further complication comes from the nature of the outermost layer of the Earth's atmosphere, the ionosphere.

    That is composed in part of particles that have ionised, or been ripped apart by radiation from the Sun, with the composition dependent on how much radiation is coming from the Sun at a given time.

    The problem comes about because sat-nav technology assumes that signals pass through at a constant speed - which in the ionosphere isn't necessarily the case.

    "The key point is how fast the signals actually travelled," said Cathryn Mitchell of the University of Bath.

    "When they come through the ionosphere, they slow down by an amount that is actually quite variable, and that adds an error into the system when you do the calculations for your position," Professor Mitchell told BBC News.

    The amount of solar activity runs on many cycles; the ionisation will be different on the sun-lit side of the Earth from the night side, and different between summer and winter; each of these cycles imparts a small error to a sat-nav's position.

    But the disruption caused by solar flares is significantly higher.

    The increased radiation will ionise more molecules, and the bursts of particles can become trapped in the ionosphere as the Earth's magnetic field drags them in.

    The effects that sat-nav users will face, however, are difficult to predict.

    "We can look at the measurements from the last solar maximum," Professor Mitchell said.

    "If we project those forward, it varies quite a lot across the Earth; looking at the UK it will be about 10-metre errors in the positioning. "

    The errors would be much more long-lasting than the "blindness" problem, lasting hours or even days.

    "Ten metres out is probably going to be OK for a sat-nav system in a car, but if you're using the system for something safety-critical like ships coming into harbour for navigation or possibly in the future landing aircraft, you're looking for much greater accuracy and more importantly, much greater reliability. "

    Bob Cockshott, a director of the government-funded Digital Systems Knowledge Transfer Network, said that for most consumer applications such as sat-nav for cars, the problem will be more troublesome than dangerous.

    "You might find for a number of hours or even a day or two you couldn't go out surveying or be able to dock your oil tanker at the deep-ocean oil well," he told BBC News.

    "It's more at the annoyance level than something that's going to bankrupt your business."

    A number of schemes have been proposed to do real-time corrections to the signals as the atmosphere changes, allowing for local adjustments that are broadcast to receivers by other means such as the mobile phone network.

    However, Mr Cockshott said that it remains unclear whether such a correction makes sense economically for manufacturers of sat-nav-enabled technology.

    So as the Sun builds up to its peak in a few years' time, be aware that your sat-nav may for a time give some strange results - or for a short while none at all.
    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news. bbc.co.uk/ go/pr/fr/ -/2/hi/science/ nature/8494225. stm

    Published: 2010/02/10 04:32:56 GMT

    © BBC MMX
  8. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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    Back to paper charts and dividers...
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Sounds a bit like Y2K. However, if it comes to pass, us old timers can double our rate since the kids will be babbling incoherantly (Hey, why can't I text? My I-phone just went blank. Dead rec-what?).:D
  10. jsi

    jsi New Member

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    Boy howdy -

    This reminds me of my previous generation - my Dad -

    And the transition from Points to Degrees.

    He ran mail down to the ships in New York during the Great Depression,

    More or less a street kid, until he got a berth.

    That's the way they did it then.

    Became a card-carrying ABS on a general cargo ship running from

    New York to S. American ports and back. This was just before WWII.

    So, anyway, they were a day or so outside of New York on a return run,

    And ran into some extremely heavy weather.

    He was on duty as the helmsman.

    The Captain, who was an old school son of a *****, was on the bridge.

    For the next 24 hours, the Cap called out headings in points,

    Rather than degrees. My Dad knew points, and just adjusted accordingly.

    They made it into New York unscathed, Cap looks at my Dad, and says

    Something like "You know navigation by points."

    My Dad says "Yessir."

    Got promoted to Second Mate on the spot.

    Just a blast from the past.

    jsi
  11. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Sextant and a radar(or just an old RayJeff RDF if your land fall is a populated one) will work fine if for some reason GPS becomes unusable due to solar flare activity. Most days though you can just go by sight and soundings.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    How many of today's captains have even held a sextant much less actually know how to use it?:D As for the average boater; lost and found for boats sounds like a good business to get into. ROFLMAO. I heard of a guy who tried to take a little rental boat from Lauderdale to the Bahamas using a placemat map from a diner.
  13. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Celestial isn't that difficult, especially if all you're doing is noon sights, most people can be taught to take and work a 3 star running fix in a couple of days. Just because they haven't been exposed to it, doesn't mean they are incapable of learning it.
  14. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    :D :D :D :D :D We must be meeting different boaters. Most that I meet can hardly plot and follow a course on a GPS, and have never even looked at their paper charts (if the have any). Remember where most GPS units are. They're not on megayachts with seasoned masters at the helm.
  15. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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    I remember taking 3min fixes in 6-8 foot seas on a tiny little chart table with a red light in the CG. When I got out and got my license I got a job on a fireboat outside of D.C. I was the first person to operated the thing and after looking around for some charts of the area I came across this chart plotter thing that I had heard a lot about but never used (the military is a bit behind the times) So I finally figured out how to turn it on and the hardest part was trusting the darn thing. Unfortunately now I am so used to using them I don't know if I could go back. :confused: :)
  16. wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

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    I learned celestial navigation from NROTC in college as an elective in the early 1970s. I still have my copy of Dutton's and Sight Reduction tables. Until recently I still had the Davis plastic practice sextant they issued us. I never relied on it for navigation but I did occasionally take practice fixes just to see if I still could.

    The Navy is not teaching or using celestial navigation any more and I think that's extremely short sighted, especially on a war ship. Someday we're going to fight a war where satellites are targets and it's sad to think the US fleet will be lost without all their electronic gizmos.
  17. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    I believe warships also carry INS (Inertial Navigation Systems) which can be used independently of other nav systems, similar to those carried on larger aircraft and submarines.
  18. wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

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    I know subs do but I wasn't sure about surface ships. It's still an electronic gadget that can suffer battle damage or malfunction.
  19. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    True, but then Quartermasters get killed in battle action as well....