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Looking for A/C advice from 44MY owners

Discussion in 'Viking Yacht' started by Viking44MY, Feb 7, 2022.

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  1. Viking44MY

    Viking44MY New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2022
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay
    I'm spending the winter updating my new to me 1988 44 Viking MY and would appreciate some A/C advice. My boat currently has what I believe is the original configuration. Here's my current situation:

    The boat has two Marine Aire 16K BTU split systems. One of the two condensers in the engine room feeds a single evaporator under the helm. Both the intake and vent are in the salon ceiling (the original arrangement). I don't know the age of this system but the reversing valve sticks and it will only occasionally run in heat mode. When it does run in heat mode it blows 120 degree air, which is good. I bought the boat in November so haven't really be able to truly test cool mode but I assume it blows cold air based on how hot the heat mode air has been during the brief times that the reversing valve has worked. Usually in heat mode the compressor will come on for maybe 20 seconds, then trip an overload, then reset and try again, over and over. If I switch back and forth between AC and heat several times I can sometimes get the heat to run until it reaches the thermostat temp and the compressor kicks off, but then it cycles again when the thermostat calls for heat. Tapping the reversing valve with a screw driver while it's trying to cycle does not seem to help. The tech at the marine tells me it's not really practical to replace a reversing valve on an old unit.

    The other 16K condenser feeds two evaporators. One behind an aft stateroom closet and the other behind a forward stateroom closet. This system has 2011 written on the condenser and appears newer. There is a thermostat in the aft stateroom that controls both evaporators. The front stateroom only has an old fan speed dial, no thermostat. The front stateroom fan will not blow at a normal (high) speed. The dial only seems to take it from very low speed to moderately low speed. I think this is a controller problem and not a fan problem. I'm guessing someone replaced some or all of this system in 2011 but did not update the thermostat and controller. This system also has a slow refrigerant leak. It would only blow 75 degree air in heat mode in November. I had the marina tech try to charge it and he was able to get it up to 90 degrees but says it should be at least 110. He said it needs to be charged in cool mode on a hot day to get it any better. The thermostat for this system only goes down to 65 degrees, which is not good for the Chesapeake humidity, at least for me. I like to sleep with the AC at about 60. This insures the compressor will come on during cooler but very humid summer nights.

    I have the budget to upgrade these systems. The marina tech thinks I just should replace the stateroom split system with two new self contained units. This could bump up my capacity if I went with 11K or 12K units and would also give each stateroom its own thermostat, and the new thermostats would go down to 55 degrees. The problem is that Marine Aire Units will not quite fit in the old evaporator spaces. I don't think Cruise Air units will fit either. New Marine Aire units are my first choice. The new 230V units are in a sound box and have pressure gauges built in. I would really like these, but they're a little too big to fit in the old evaporator spaces and I can't find any other good location options. The only units with adequate capacity that I've found that will fit are 12K BTU Units sold by a place called the Climate Marine Store in Florida. But I'm not clear on the brand. Modell is CTM-12H which makes me think they are made for this store. I've need to give them a call to get more info.

    The salon system has less options. There's not enough space under the helm for a self contained unit and I'm not sure I like the idea of pumping water to the bridge so I'm thinking I'll stick with the split system for the salon. Not really any obvious spots in cabinets or under the dinette for a self contained unit either. I'm thinking of keeping the current system for a season since I suspect it works well in cool mode and maybe some more cycling of the reversing valve will kick it loose. The previous owner stopped using the boat early in the season and never really cycled between modes. I have a lot of other projects going on and if it cools the salon I can live without heat mode in the salon for a season while I focus on getting the stateroom units sorted out.

    I'd love to hear what other 1980s 44 MY owners have done and any thoughts or suggestions on how to proceed in getting reliable systems with adequate capacity. Thanks in advance for reading my very long post and and advice you can provide.
  2. MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,172
    Location:
    Windsor On. Canada
    I've owned mine for 21 years.
    I've researched your situation over the last couple of years as well. It's probably easier to discuss than type a book back and forth.
    If you wish to discuss further PM me your number and we can talk when convenient.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,727
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Newer split systems comes with the better controls.
    Older systems can be upgraded with the newer controls.
    Newer controls offer a de-humidify mode.
    It will be much quieter if you keep the split systems. Maybe add a third split system for the forward cabin.

    Salon unit;
    Keeping in mind while in heat mode, the system kind of runs backwards in a not-so efficient flow. Head pressure runs higher than in cool mode.
    The compressor may be cycling because of to little or to much freon.
    The reversing valve is relaxed to run in cool mode, engaged for heat mode. If you hear it clicking, it's working.

    Forward cabin;
    It will only move a tiny bit of air. It will not have the typical squirrel cage blower but usually rear blown with C-Frame fan motors.
    If the back of the tiny evap is covered in dust, it will blow thru less also.
    It is just a rheostat that changes fan speed and usually not that big of a change will be noticed in flow or by listing to it. Supposed to be quiet.

    Your state room;
    Freon leaks happen. There are dyes and stop leak products out there that may help.
    Systems can be charges in heat mode, the readings will be different.

    For all, clean evaporators are very important.

    In replacing split system components;
    It is very hard and expensive to find affordable R22 components.
    R410A equipment is the current path and not compatible with R22 parts (except for the controllers).
    R410A systems run at a higher pressure. This means that your copper freon lines may have to be replaced.
    Some builders used heavy walled copper, most did not. We have replaced R22 with R410A systems and not replaced the better copper lines. These lines were in great shape and did work well.
    We have also replaced lines that were ugly, even turned a job down once when the owner did not want his ugly copper lines replaced.
    The more correct job will include replacement of these lines.

    All MFGs use the same compressors and other common components. Their packaging and sizes are usually the difference from one company to another.
    They do have different controllers but work the same. and here may be the rub, next year, those exact controllers may not be available.
    Further, the big boat equipment company Dometic, has been buying up marine suppliers left & right lately. When these guys don't want to compete, they buy up their competition.
    Next year, that independent A C company may not be around any more IMO.

    Good luck
  4. Viking44MY

    Viking44MY New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2022
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay
    Thanks for the input Capt. Ralph. I'll have the tech check the salon system for over charge if I can get him on the boat again boat and I'll listen to see if the reversing valve is clicking when I unwinterize in mid march. Maybe my heat problem is from overcharge. That would be an easy fix. Regarding the front stateroom blower speed, the two evaporators in the two staterooms are identical. I assume they are both 8K BTU evaporators since they are fed by a 16K BTU compressor/condenser. The rear blower is controlled by the thermostat and as you said, the front blower is controlled by a simple dial rheostat mounted in the front stateroom wall. Although they are identical evaporators when the front blower is turned all the way up it spins/blows at half the speed of the rear blower. Both evaporators are very clean. Maybe replacing the rheostatic with a different speed controller might be possible? If I could get the front blower to blow a hard as the rear blower, add some leak sealer to fix the very slow leak (maintenance log says the unit was recharged 7 years ago) get it charged to where it's blowing the spec temps, and can change the thermostat to something that goes below 65 degrees I might postpone the whole A/C project to next winter. I might not have a choice because my biggest issue right is getting a contractor to even come look at it and quote some options.

    Also, the copper water lines in the boat are very thick walled. They are definitely not the thin flexible copper tubing sold at Lowes, more like copper pipes. I'm hoping Viking used the same wall thickness for the refrigerant lines, but no way to really tell without cutting a line. It would be quite a job to run new lines, but considering they are 33 years old I think I should take your advice and have them replaced if I go with a new split system, no matter how thick they are.
  5. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay, Delaware Bay & S.Jersey
    I dont have a viking but my second split was the same as yours. One stat and a speed control only in the fwd v berth.

    Although my evapotator was pretty clean I felt it was not right just as you have.

    I too decided to replace because of leaks but before hand i removed the squirrel cage blower from the fwd stateroom and saloon.

    I was surprized to see how much stuff had accumulated on the fins of the fan. After cleaning them I got a noticable difference in air flow.

    I never thought dirt and crap could even get to the blowers but they had just enough to hinder air flow.
  6. Viking44MY

    Viking44MY New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2022
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    22
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay
    Did you replace with another split system or did you go with two self contained units?
  7. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay, Delaware Bay & S.Jersey
    I went with 2 selfies. Original was a 10 and 12 kbtu units the 10 did the stateroom and the fwd v berth.
    The 12 did the saloon.

    Like you, I was never satisfied with the cooling of the 10. It was JUUST enough. It struggled in August.

    I put a 10 in the master and a 6 int the v berth. That was last winter.

    So far I have been happy although the v berth 6 has a reverb issue that I have not over come yet.
  8. BigChief

    BigChief Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2018
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    CT
    I went through something similar on my 41 Viking. I had a bad compressor on the forward birth 9K unit They are split systems like yours much quieter that way when the compressor is in the engine room.
    You can usually get a compressor from your local is AC shop or online if you match up match up the parameters from the original unit which usually has a tag on it.
    The older units run on R22 now You can use NU22 which is a direct replacement non ozone depleting refrigerant.

    The copper tubing the Viking used is L rated it's much thicker than the standard M tubing. I did not replace the copper lines they We're in very good shape and I doubt you're going to get the M thickness tubing today.
    What's nice about the older systems are very little electronics no high pressure low pressure cut out except for the internal high head pressure sensor in the compressor itself.

    You need to make sure the saltwater system is cleaned yearly also make sure the evaporator coil fins are clean and dust free.

    The old potentiometer control systems are antiquated but very reliable Is no printed circuit boards or electronics to fail

    the newer units are nice especially with the digital controls
    I have the newer units in a newer boat and I have had some issues and it came down to the electronics.
    The self contained units are nice and quiet if you have the room but you may have to relocate water lines.

    Make sure you keep spare start and run capacitors on board as they do fail from time to time

    That's my 2 cents...good luck
  9. BigChief

    BigChief Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2018
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    CT
    L is thicker than M that's what you would prefer to have Sorry for the confusion
  10. SplashFl

    SplashFl Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2021
    Messages:
    431
    Location:
    S. Florida _ Bertram 46
    In order to get the humidity down on cooler nights I came up with various options. 1. Only run one of the two units on cool. 2. Run a small plug in 110 v. heater with one unit on cool. 3. Run one unit on cool and the other on heat.
    After 3 techs were unable to find the extremely slow leak in one unit, I purchased a set of AC gauges and a tank of Freon 22 and gave it a shot of gas annually until finding the leak actually fixed itself so during the last dozen or so years before selling never had add any.